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03-28-2003, 09:42 AM
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The Suffering of Jesus
I realize I was going quite off-topic in This Thread. So I’ve copied the relevant posts into their own thread..
Here’s the background… I am Green Green, Christian is Crimson in these cut-n-pastes. Quote:
Here's a guy who KNOWS what is going to happen, KNOWS how long it will last, KNOWS that he won't be dead at the end of it, KNOWS what good is supposed to come from it... And he suffers stress from it? This story has never rung true for me. Not ever. I just cannot buy this one guy knowing that he will be tortured for 3 hours and having him sweat blood because of it. Not when I know of people, children who have suffered for YEARS with NO hope, NO understanding, NO purpose. And to have you claim "this was the greatest kind of suffering ever" Faugh. Not by a great long shot. Not even close. Where's that link to the audio tape of the 10 year old girl getting raped and tortured and killed over the course of several days while she cries out to her mommy - and her god? Sorry Jesus. There's nothing wrong with being a wimp. Many of us are about many things. But don't call evidence of your own fear proof of your suffering. To me all it proves it that he wasn't who he said he was, he didn't have the purpose he said he had and he didn't have the certainty he claimed to have. Quote:
====================== One more comment on the claim - ridiculous to me - that Jesus suffered "the greatest kinds of suffering". I would just like to say one little bitty thing more. That is factually, demonstrably, overwhelmingly impossible. And here's why. Jesus was never a parent. And this train of thought has two prongs. Both are, in my experience, overwhemlingly accepted as true to the point of being nearly unanimous. If ANYONE disagrees, I would be interested in hearing it. H'okay. THING 1: Childbirth is painful. If childbirth lasts 3 hours, it's considered pretty good. For some it lasts all day. For some several days. But. And here's the strength of the argument. Every mother will tell you it was worth it to bring forth their _one_ child into the world. AND. Almost every mother will tell you she would do it again despite the suffering. You claim that Jesus KNEW of an even greater reward than a single child of his own. Supposedly, he was doing this for the greatest reward ever - the salvation of all of mankind. And he didn't have the certainty of a first-time mother? THING 2: Just about any parent on the planet will confirm to you that the death of a child is the worst suffering they have ever known. Jesus never lost a child. Now, you may claim, "he lost so many children who didn't accept him," but I'm saying _IF_ your claim is that he had to die on the cross to "know what humanity was like" then how can you trivialize the worst suffering known to humans by saying he didn't have to do _that_ one? THING 3: Which brings me to the unsolicited thing 3. If God wanted to "experience humanity" so that he could "understand us better" then how could he have possibly left out parenthood? Is that not a major part of the human experience? With all due respect to those who choose to remain childless, whom I admire greatly for their decision despite the pressures of society, can anybody really claim to have experienced ALL that humanity has to offer without experiencing parenthood? Parenthood brings tremendous joy to most parents, but also has the potential to bring great trauma and suffering. So lets look at another example of "the greatest kinds of suffering" and see if Jesus actually had a hard time of it or was really just a scared, soft, shadow of a martyr. Lets look at Bana. I just made the name up, bear with me. Bana is a slave in the American past. Bana was ripped from the arms of her parents at 10. She was shipped across the ocean in a hold lying on her back for three months (not three hours, not a whole day, but 3 months), chained, lying in excrement and vomit. Fed just enough to keep her alive. She is sold on the block on her arrival. Raped by her owner. Forced to work hard labor. Whipped, hit, cut, beaten, raped some more and kept at hard labor. Finally she finds love in a fellow slave. They have children. She continues to work back=breaking work - even days after giving birth (no resting in a manger for this mom). She continues to be whipped at the whim of her master. Her husband tries to escape to forge for them and their children a better life. He is captured. She and her children are forced to watch him hanged to death. Then, as punishment, her children are taken, screaming and crying from her arms and sold. She never sees them again. In her misery, she is disobedient. Finally, she is whipped again so badly that she can no longer walk. She dies, weeks later from the infection. This is fiction, but it was repeated time and time and time again in history. I am _sure_ someone can say, "yes, that is the story of my great-grandmother". It's a real human "experience". Now tell me. How can any person say that _Jesus_ had it bad? How can you say that and still look at yourself? If your god sought to "experience the worst man had to offer", then he chose a pathetic vessel. He should have chosen Bana. ============================= Rhea, Quote:
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Set aside the religious overtones ... what if it was someone other than Jesus. If "Billy Bob" was about to go through the torture and execution I have described, what would you think then? Let's say that Billy Bob has a very complete foreknowledge of what will happen. For the past 3 years Billy Bob has been forced to watch Roman floggings and Crucifixions at least once a day, oftentimes many more. Every single time he watches that he is told "this is exactly what is going to happen to you on 1 April 2003." The day grows closer and closer. Can you honestly make the claim that Billy Bob would experience no stress because he knows what is coming? I suggest just the opposite. Foreknowledge of something that horrible would serve to increase the dread and horror as the day approached. We're not talking about going to the dentist here ... we're talking about horrible mutilation and torture and pain, and slow death. Is your perspective so skewed that a 3 hour death by suffocation sounds quick and painless to you? I knew four months ahead of time that I was assigned to Korea and would be separated from my wife for a year. Guess what ... the dread of leaving only got worse and worse as the day approached. It was the worst the day before I left. I had the benefit of foreknowledge, but that didn't make it less difficult. I just don't see any reason to think that foreknowledge of horrible torture makes it any easier to endure horrible torture. Please enlighten me if I am missing something here. Quote:
I suggest that if we were talking about anyone other than Jesus you would consider the pain and suffering to be horrible. Even if that person had whatever advantages Jesus might have had. Quote:
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I don't understand. How would Jesus dreading His torture and death by slow suffocation prove those things to you? Quote:
Respectfully, Christian ============================= Quote:
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(note: please cite where in the bible it suggests that Jesus watched crucifictions every day for 3 years. Also please cite which historical texts show that crucifictions happened every day in Jerusalem.) Quote:
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Can we agree that Jesus did not die from this? He did come back to life, in your opinion, right? He's not gone forever, nor still suffering. Can we agree on this? IMO, that mitigates the suffering enormously! If you were sent to Korea and NOT told it was a one-year assignment, but rather it was unknown, and indeed you might not ever be allowed to rejoin your wife, are you saying that might be a teeny tiny bit more suffering, but not much? Because that's what you're saying about Jesus. That even though he spent only a year in Korea, it was just as difficult for him as for the soldier who was told "who knows, it might be forever. Now kiss you wife goodbye." Are you claiming these are the same? Are you really going to stand next to Jake, at the airport and hear him say, "I am leaving for my assignment in Korea, I just kissed my wife goodbye. They said my assignment might be a year, might be ten years, or I might never be assigned to come back. This is so hard." And you're going to look Jake in the eye and say, "yeah, I'm in for a year. I just said goodbye to my wife for a year. I hear you, we're both making the biggest sacrifice a soldier can make." And you don't think Jake is going to think you're a monster? Quote:
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1. Knowing why it was happening 2. Having that why be to save the world. 3. Knowing they would not die permanently from it and 4. Knowing how long it would take, 5. Having it take one day Then I absolutely don't care who it is, I would not call that "the worst suffering known to man" Quote:
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You may be able to stand next to that soldier who is being separated from his wife forever while you are being separated for one year and say, with a straight face, "yeah, we're in the same boat". But I think most people would not think well of you if you did. Last edited by Rhea on March 27, 2003 at 11:21 AM Rhea, Quote:
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I do realize that it is easier to subject yourself to pain if you know that a greater good will result, or that it serves a higher purpose somehow. I also realize that Jesus went into His mutilation, torture and slow death with that advantage. My assertion is the mutilation, torture, and slow death still amounts to tremendous, horrible, and unthinkable pain and suffering no matter how noble the cause. Quote:
If I follow you (please correct me if I get your argument wrong): 1 – The unanimous assertion of parents is that the death of a child is the worst suffering they have ever known. 2 – Therefore the death of a child really is the worst possible suffering in the world. 3 – Therefore it is impossible for a childless person to experience the worst suffering in the world. Interesting. Doesn’t your conclusion trivialize the suffering of anyone who is not a parent, though? You gave the example previously of a young girl who was repeatedly raped on tape. The girl was too young to have been a parent, though. So by your own criteria she did not experience the worst type of suffering. She may have suffered some, but it certainly doesn’t meet your criteria for falling into the category of “the worst type of suffering.” Right? Quote:
If He had been a parent He would be open to the accusation “How could He have possible left out being childless, since that is a pain experienced by so many humans?” Etc, ad infinitum. Again, I am not claiming that Jesus experienced every possible human condition. I’m claiming that the parts He chose to experience were some of the worst parts to be had. Quote:
I respectfully submit that you have just destroyed your own THING 2 argument, which is the only support you have offered for your initial assertion. Your apparent approach here is flawed in another way as well. You seem to be claiming that Jesus did not experience “the greatest kinds of suffering” because you come up with examples of greater suffering. “Bana suffered more than Jesus did, therefore Jesus didn’t make the cut.” But if we keep applying that approach, then nobody would ever make the cut. For example, let’s say that Bana II had the exactly same experience, but she also watched her children tortured, raped, and slowly killed in front of her. Let’s further say that she was forcibly compelled to contribute to that event. Let’s crank up the time factor too … now the slave ship was lost at sea and she was chained there for an entire year and almost starved. Her death from infection now takes months, not weeks. Let’s add the horror of foreknowledge … every painful event she will experience is described to her in detail and the date given when she will have to endure it. The amount of pain and suffering that Bana II went through is demonstrably greater than what Bana went through. So applying your logic, Bana doesn’t make the cut for truly great and horrible suffering because we can come up with an example of greater suffering (Bana II). And we could apply the same technique to show that Bana II doesn’t make the cut. And the one after that. And the one after that. If we apply your approach consistently then the logical conclusion will be that nobody, real or imagined, has ever experienced the worst kinds of suffering. Therefore, no example (real or imagined) of “the worst kinds of suffering” exists. We can always imagine something worse. The end result of your approach is to trivialize all suffering, actual or imagined. Quote:
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No, He should have chosen Ingrid. No, He should have chosen Joe Bob. No, He should have chosen …….. Respectfully, Christian |
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03-28-2003, 10:24 AM
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Christian wrote -
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I would ask how can *you* look in the mirror and justify all the gymnastics, tap-dancin', bobbing weaving and inexplicable wordplay and ad-hoc rationalization you engage in to obsfucate one simple point: Jesus' crucifixion in and of itself, coupled with his "divine" properties and foreknowledge of his resurrection, cannot reasonably be characterized as the "worst possible suffering" of an "ultimate sacrifice". FACT: Many people have suffered more physically. Jesus' crucifixion, while certainly horribly painful, is not an example of the most physical pain and torture ever experienced by a human being. FACT: Many people who have suffered more physically have done so without any assurance that they would be "resurrected", and have lost their lives PERMANENTLY. All the semantic games in the world and special pleadings as to Jesus' "inherent worth" do not change the above two facts and in turn only serve to denigrate the suffering of the human beings whose lives are obviously so "inherently less-valuable" to you. Digustedly, Ex-Christian (P.S. Sorry Rhea as this rant is not meant to derail the topic, which I think is an excellent one and I am sure will be an interesting thread.. I just had to say my peace. Phew!) 
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03-28-2003, 10:26 AM
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- Immaturity of the sufferer - Long durations - No purpose to suffering - No knowledge of the duration - Loss of a child (through death _or_ kidnapping/sale) Yes, I am saying that there are many ways to "suffer the worst that man has to offer" and Jesus didn't pick them. It doesn't require all of them. Any one or two would do, although if a GOD wanted to "experience human suffering" then I'm sure he could have created a situation in which to experience them all, since he's a GOD after all. No you don't have to keep looking for one worse, although as I say a GOD could certainly have come up with a way. (right?) No I'm not trying to claim that only parents can possibly suffer the worst, as I have tried to list clearly. No need to go there, it's not where I'm at. Christian, you have failed to answer some key questions. This is one: Quote:
I am also claiming, although it is not interdependent with the magnitude of the suffering, that the fact of Jesus sweating blood belies his claim of purpose and knowledge and godhood. more later |
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03-28-2003, 10:34 AM
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c-o-a-s: no tangent at all. That's right on topic. Thanks for your input. I think it helps to descirbe it in many different ways to try to overcome the assumption that "this was the worst ever" and that it is somehow a compelling argument.
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03-28-2003, 02:52 PM
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First a few disclaimers;
I'm-for the sake of this thread-going to ignore that there is no record of Jesus being crucified from the time. And that there is no evidence that Jesus ever existed. And that the crucifixion in the Gospels isn't a real crucifixion. I'm also going to ignore the fact that this was the standard death for this type of demigod, on the standard date and with him returning to life in the standard three days. I'm also going to ignore the fact that Easter is the name of the Goddess who, after him being dead for three days, brought her son back to life on this date. While I'm at it I'll ignore that this is supposed to be a bloody human sacrifice to appease the God of Love. I'm going to ignore all that and look at this as if it were newspaper reporting. I see a story of a guy who was tortured all day Friday, given up for dead in the middle of the afternoon. Then the guy shows up first thing Sunday morning at his friend's house looking like hell and showing all the wounds of his torture. Where's the worst suffering in the world? It obiviously didn't even kill him. How bad could it have been if he was back on his feet after only a day? Now I'll ignore that some of the stories put the friend's house sixty-five to eighty miles away from where the other stories put it. And I'll ignore some stories saying he lived for a day and some saying over six weeks before he floated into the air like a balloon. Wouldn't the two thieves be said to have suffered worst than him? They didn't walk away from it. And one of them was sent to the pit of Hell forever-now that's suffering. I'm ignoring that these two guys come straight out of Mithraism. |
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03-28-2003, 05:05 PM
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There aren't many worse ways to die then crucifixtion, and certaintly aren't any execution methods that bad. Can't even compare electric chair or lethal injection to that, and being burned alive is about the only thing i can think of that comes close to that pain. And crucifiction is probably worse since it lasts a heck of a lot longer. Do not act like that is meaningless. You can personally not give a crap, but we do, and since Jesus went through all that to save our hell bound arses, when he was perfect and innocent , and had absolutely no requirement to do so, its extremely insulting for you to say, oh its meaningless, only minimal pain. This was 2000 years ago. Crucifixtion was THE harshest and most painful form of death in existence, and it still is close to the top of worst ways to die even by today's standards. It obviously didn't kill Him? Um Hello, he died, was dead, all bodily functions ceased for 3 days. He very much died. Quote:
Tacitus, a roman historian from 1st Century. "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures a class hated for their abominations, people called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius [AD 14-37] at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also." Annals 15.44. Pliny, a roman senator. Christians were "meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to do wicked deeds, never commit fraud, theft, adultery, not to lie nor to deny a trust. . . " Epistles X96 Pontius Pilate, Governor and executor of Jesus, describing his crucifixtion. "'At His coming the lame will leap as a deer, and the stammering tongue will clearly speak: the blind will see, and the lepers will be healed; and the dead will rise, and walk.' And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate." First Apology 48. '''They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were driven into His hands and feet. And. . . they cast lots for His clothes, and after they crucified Him distributed it among them. And that these things did happen , you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.' First Apology 35. Seutonius, a roman historian. "Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]." Life of Claudius. "Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief." Life of Claudius. Mara Bar-Serapion, a Syrian describing the Jews wise King and him being murdered. "What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?. . . after that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men. . . the wise king. . . lived on in the teachings he enacted." Phlegon, a 1st century historian describing the crucifixtion of Jesus and the eclipse and earthquakes that took place. "Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions." Origen Against Celsus "And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place . . . ” Origen Against Celsus "Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." De. opif. mund. II21 Thallus, through Julius Africanus describing the eclipse and the Savior. "This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as it appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time but in the interval between the first day of the new moon and the last of the old, that is, at their junction: how then should an eclipse occur when the moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun? Phlegon records that in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth — manifestly that one of which we speak." The Extant Writings of Julius Africanus 18 Lucian, a satirist hostile to Christians. "The Christians. . . worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced this new cult, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains their contempt for death and self devotion . . . their lawgiver [taught] they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take on faith . . . " The Passing Peregrinus The Jewish Talmud, "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [Jesus] was hanged. . . but since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover." Babylonia Sanhedrin 43A Josephus, "Now, there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man. For he was a doer of surprising feats - a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day." Antiquities of the Jews 18.3.3. (taken from neverthirsty.org). There aren't many historians or Archaeologists who would deny Jesus Christ the person existed and was crucified, but feel free. |
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03-28-2003, 05:17 PM
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Magus,
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Stop putting words into other people's mouths and start addressing the argument, please. Over and out - |
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03-28-2003, 05:43 PM
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#8 |
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Originally posted by Magus55
Could you endure days of stress you probably can't imagine, lashings so bad you could see organs and your own spine, How could Jesus see his own spine? Was he capable of twisting his head 180 degrees around, like an owl? then be hoisted up on the cross with the only support being from the nails ripping through your wrists and feet, Didn't the Romans use ropes to hold crucifixees in place as well? Didn't think so, so be quiet. You'll excuse me, I hope, if I don't follow that courteous suggestion. when he was perfect and innocent , This "perfect" guy made a racist remark to a woman who came to him asking him to heal her sick child. He also cursed a fig tree because it didn't bear fruits out of season. Not so innocent after all. |
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03-28-2003, 05:50 PM
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Re: The Suffering of Jesus
Not that this is really worth getting involved in, but...
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03-28-2003, 06:05 PM
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So you do realize Magus that when I said
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