Bede

Here's an article from the UK Spectator on Pius XII. The author is a Jewish historian of high repute:

<a href="http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old&section=back&issue=2002-06-01&id=1582&searchText=" target="_blank">Jewish historian on Pius XII</a>

And a interview with a Jesuit on the subject:

<a href="http://www.spectator.co.uk/article.php3?table=old&section=current&issue=2002-07-20&id=2069" target="_blank">Interview</a>

It looks like this issue is not nearly so cut and dried and anti-Catholics would have us believe.

Yours

Bede

<a href="http://www.bede.org.uk" target="_blank">Bede's Library - faith and reason</a>

Vorkosigan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bede:
Here's an article from the UK Spectator on Pius XII. The author is a Jewish historian of high repute:

The author is an American paleoconservative jewish political historian. Let's put him in his proper pigeonhole. He's of the intellectual viewpoint of Pat Buchanon, although he is not the lightweight that Buchanon is.

And a interview with a Jesuit on the subject

It looks like this issue is not nearly so cut and dried and anti-Catholics would have us believe.

If we decline to put much stock in the remarks of a conservative crypto-facist like Gottfried, and a Jesuit whose agenda is obvious, does that make us anti-Catholic?

It's basically the same tired apologetics we've heard. Rather than deal with the arguments, your Jesuit friend simply does a diss and dismiss. Meanwhile, it is inarguable that Pius cut deals with Hitler and Mussolini, allowed a Catholic priest to serve as a dictator and another to head a death camp, and pinned medals on Franco. When Hitler was declared dead, I recall reading that the Vatican said masses for him. There's lots more to be said about Pacelli, but Cornwell does a fine job.

What is it you are looking for here? The whole point is that Cornwell has already provided the documentation that refutes your Jesuit's claims, and Gottfried is dealing with Goldhagen.

It's not our fault you chose to worship in one of the more brutal Christian churches. You could have become a Quaker, or a freethinker. Then you would not be stuck defending the sordid evils of Catholicism.

If you have specific comments about Cornwell, why not post them here?

BTW, I AM anti-Catholic, as I am against any organization that does not foster human freedom and progress. It is not bigotry to be against authoritarianism, intolerance, and reactionary conservativism.

Vorkosigan

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Vorkosigan ]</p>

Anunnaki

What do you expect from a lonely kid who God found working in a Jersey McDonalds?

McDonalds: over 2 billion miracles served.

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

excreationist

About that first link about the church being anti-semitic...

see <a href="http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/index.html" target="_blank">Martin Luther's "The Jews and their Lies"</a> especially <a href="http://www.awitness.org/books/luther/luther_jews/17_treat_jews_reprise.html" target="_blank">chapter 17</a>.

I guess this thread is just about Pius XII and the Catholics though...