Jove

If time is merely humanity's way of measuring change, and God transcends time, and is eternal, is God capable of change?

ishalon

Perfection doesn't change.

Jove

Exactly. If God is perfect, why would he need to change?

Jobar

Hello Jove, welcome to II.

If God is 'outside' time, then he is undetectable unless he chooses to act within time. If he acts within time, he leaves traces of his actions- traces of a purposeful intelligence of very great power are lacking in all our observations of the universe.

If he is outside time and never acts within it, he is entirely unrelated to our temporal existence, and we have no need and no way to relate to him.

If he is within time himself, he changes too- which the theologians say is impossible for perfection. (I think that they might be wrong here; if perfection includes the possibility of change, we could postulate a pantheistic god, coexistent with the universe. Though, again, there is no firm evidence for this.)

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jobar, Jove and all...

Just wanted to point out here that 'a purposeful intelligence of very great power are lacking in all our observations of the universe' is purely opinion. Conversely, there is an opposite opinion.

Many people look at the universe and conclude there is a God exactly because it seems there is a 'purposeful intelligence of very great power' acting in the universe.

Again...it simply depend on your outlook in life.

The wording here is loose enough that conclusion is dismissable. The conclusion is based entirely upon what 'perfection' means and the assumption that 'perfection can't change'. Personally, the terms here are so subjective that I think this is a meaningless argument.

There does not seem to be a logic connection between how we percieve God' character relative our own and His ability to interact with the universe.

<Shrug>

I think my overlying objection with this reply is the implicit assumption that God experiences time in the exact same way we do. This does not seem to make any sense. If God did create time (as we know it) it would be seem unlikely for us to experience time in the same way God does.

In fact, it seems likely that our time (at the very least) would be a subset of God's time or even of God Himself. God may perceive our entire timeline simultaneously and concurrently where we percieve our timeline in a sequential, linear fashion.


Thoughts and comments welcomed,

SOMMS

Jove

What I'm trying to ask is, if God is eternal, he can't change. And if he can't change, which is supported by the "facts" that he is eternal, and that he is perfect (if he was always, is, and always shall be perfect, he would never need to change), then how can he even...have more than one thought going through his "head" at one time? How can he make decisions?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Jove,

All excellent questions.

However, just because we percieve time as a sequential chain of events doesn't mean God (or any higher dimensional entity) percieves time this way.

If God percieves time in the same manner we percieve space then He can concurrently occupy multiple (read infinite) points in time...the same way your body occupies many (read infinite) points in space.


I think this is a question that is very specific to our perception of time. We are subject to time...so we can't have more than one thought at a time...so God must be likewise. However, if God exists then He is not subject to time. If God experienced time in a geometric fashion it would be the case that *all* thoughts would concurrently occupy his mind.


Again...this is a very 'subject to time' question.
It would be more correct to say that, relative to our timeline, God's will is concurrently manifest throughout our timeline. This more or less fits what many believe about God...omniscience. If He had to decide something then it would imply he doesn't know something.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,


SOMMS