7thangel

It’s my mistake of using the word “world.” Actually, the world I speak of is humanity itself. And, as I had admitted, that there are things we are not capable of in preserving such interest of our species, as you call it. So you should have known that in any ways, I would not have had thought about our responsibility of the planet in general. Mentioning God is the second.

I want to remind you that I am equating the “responsibility” to my understanding of morality. And actually, I may agree if you would propose of “eliminating most of our population,” that is, if there is no other available solution, yet I submit that we cannot really know it based on our limited understanding. Such action to eliminate them because of ignorance is immoral to me. But in some instances, just like war, we are somewhat forced to by nature of the complication to act in war, and that we act on the understanding that our point is a moral one. Here goes the complication of enforcing morality itself as I stated in the last paragraph in my original post.

Your last sentence bugs me. I notice that you seem to submit to what you have observed, instead of making a decision. I mean, you don’t seem to see as responsibility to seek people of the same understanding, or seek help from those who trust you to pursue anything that you might find helpful for humanity. Just and observation, I may be wrong.

Starboy

Who do you think I am? I have no idea how all this is going to turn out. Are we going to continue to modify our environment to the point where it is no longer habitable for our species? If we do modify our environment will we adapt to the new circumstances? Will our technology develop to the point where we can dwell on other planets? Advocating the elimination of most of our population may be the needed medicine or one of the most immoral acts in human history. I suspect the situation is moot. If you want a humbling experience get yourself a good telescope and solar filter and start observing the sun, then turn it onto the cosmos. Even though we have a considerable effect on our planet, the planet and the rest of the cosmos has an overwhelming effect on us. I suspect the whole thing will take care of itself. Besides, even the longest surviving species eventually become extinct. We are no exception.

Lastly, for the record I only mentioned elimination of most of the population as a response to your claim that we as a species were responsible for the natural condition of the planet. It is my opinion that we are only beholding to ourselves. The best we can do at this time is to learn as much about the natural world as we possibly can. It is time to ditch the fairy tales and get serious. It is time to stop explaining and understanding our surroundings in terms of ancient mythological concepts from the first century.

Starboy

7thangel

QUOTE]Originally posted by Starboy
Who do you think I am? I have no idea how all this is going to turn out. Are we going to continue to modify our environment to the point where it is no longer habitable for our species?
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I suspect the whole thing will take care of itself. Besides, even the longest surviving species eventually become extinct. We are no exception.
-----deleted some part-----
[/QUOTE]

Your reasoning astounds me. Again, this is just an observation, I may be right with this, you are like a POW (Prisoner Of War). You act as a soldier built to fight, but waiting for another soldier to free you to be useful. If you think you will "always be bound" by uncertainties, you are even becoming a soldier without a cause.

Starboy

7thangel, do not misrepresent me. I have definitely thrown my lot in with the humans, not with the planet, the animals, or the gods. I am all for pushing the bounds of what is humanly possible and contribute to that goal in my own small way. But the first rule of project management is honesty. Lying to yourself about your options is no way to reach a successful conclusion.

Starboy

sweep

Thomas Sowell's 'A Conflict of visions' springs to mind in contemplation of your views on human nature. Do you accept the tragic vision in recognising the limitations of human knowledge, our cultures, steeped in tradition- of our roots; dead hands ruling us from the grave? Or, as I put it, earlier in this thread: "Perhaps we envy those who exist outside of our time frame: 'I'm not going anywhere, so I'll make sure no one else does'."

Yet, do you also embrace the utopian vision of human nature? We have no need to resign. People can dream of alternatives, and we see social arrangements changing with time. Slavery, war, inequality and torture are not 'part and parcel' of many communities of today. Surely this is a testament of our ability to change?

I, for one, see the tragedy, but strive for utopia:

"All of us will ultimately be judged and as the years pass we will surely judge ourselves, on the effort we have contributed to building a new world society, and the extent to which our ideals and goals have shaped that effort.
The future does not belong to those who are content with today, apathetic toward common problems and their fellow man alike; timid and fearful in the face of new ideas and bold projects. Rather it will belong to those who can blend vision, reason and courage in a personal commitment to the ideals and great enterprises of American Society.
Our future may lie beyond our vision, but it is not completely beyond our control. It is the shaping impulse of America that neither fate nor nature nor the irresistible tides of history, but the work of our own hands, matched to reason and principle, will determine our destiny. There is pride in that, even arrogance, but there is also experience and truth. In any event, it is the only way we can live."

Great words from the late Robert Kennedy.

Starboy

sweep, you lost me. I am not sure what you are trying to say. For the record there are causes that I support and causes I do not care about and causes I wish would go away. As for my view of human nature, that is a work in progress. As I learn and understand more, my view changes. For sure it is very much directed by my non-spiritual, materialistic point of view. I feel that I am neither pessimistic nor optimistic regarding the possible outcomes for humanity. I like to think that I am realistic.

Starboy

sweep

alright. Are you more inclined to think that we cannot change our nature? (I have definitely thrown my lot in with the humans) or that we are free to create a better world, one free of obsolete traditions, disease, famine and war? (Such an ecosystem will bear little to no resemblance to what we understand as a natural earth)

me too. yet I can't help feeling sad in a world where dominance, violence, self gain/self deception & group hostility are the natural order.

There again, I'm not completely determined. As 7th angel points out, we can make decisions; we can break free, and 'we' (perhaps a spiritual 'we') don't all act out of self interest. I question my motives, and I understand suffering. I can't just overemphasis the violent nature, since it is also natural to care. Bah. too much thinking

Starboy

I think that our future is not pre-determined. I also think that we only have partial control. A good part of our future is a roll of the dice. If given enough time do I think that we could create a better life for all of mankind? I like to think so. If you compare life for our species today with what it was like just one hundred years ago I would say we have done that. Will life be better one hundred years from now than it is today? I don’t know. I see so many positive things going on, but it only takes a handful of negative events to screw it all up. I guess if we can get through the religious meltdown that is just getting started then I am hopeful we can continue to improve our lot.
Our future will be shaped by how our current nature changes over time. If it takes place using the mechanism of evolution it may not be very pretty. We may not survive it.

Starboy

7thangel

Wow, you did much better than I expected.

What you have said just gave much meaning to one of my post. http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.p...5&pagenumber=4 Thanks, it really had a great impact on me.