Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 02-01-2002, 11:12 AM

From <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=58&t=000171" target="_blank">this thread in the Evolution-Creationism Forum</a>:

Dr. Dino's Creationism Museum is claiming that ordinary building codes do not apply to it because Jesus is Lord. They are also claiming that the Amish and Disneyworld get special exemptions. (Disneyworld appears to have its own county government. Neat trick for keeping their property tax revenues out of the hands of local officials, where they might finance schools etc. But this is Florida.)

<a href="http://drdino.com/?pg=helpdal" target="_blank">http://drdino.com/?pg=helpdal</a>

Quote:

I have met with the county officials several times to try to resolve this conflict. I told them, "The question at issue is a simple one: Does the Escambia County, Florida civil government have jurisdiction over a Church of the Sovereign God of the universe?" We are not the aggressors in this case. We were simply trying to serve the Lord and the county stuck its nose where it has no business. (Churches that are 501c3 corporations cannot get out of the permitting process.)

. . . . The Amish never get permits or inspections of their buildings in any state, including Florida. They have a long history of maintaining their sovereign status, as do the Anabaptists. It seems like this same battle needs to be fought every generation so Caesar can be reminded where his power stops.

We are not asking for an "exemption." This would imply the state has jurisdiction. We are simply asking them to admit they have no jurisdiction over the Lord's church. . . .

For nearly 2000 years, it has been the conviction of Christians that Jesus is the head of the church and the state has no jurisdiction over the Lord's church. Millions of Christians in the early centuries died rather than submit the Lord's church to Caesar. See Foxes Book of Martyrs! It has only been in the last 100 years or so that many have bowed the knee to make Caesar the head of their church. See: <a href="http://www.hushmoney.org" target="_blank">www.hushmoney.org</a> or order the book, In Caesar's Grip ($15) from CSE for more. . . . We are a peace loving people who simply wish to serve the Lord. We cannot ask a lower authority like the civil government for permission to do what God has called us to do. If we did, how could we object later if Caesar asked to approve our teachings or make us hire people who violate clear scriptures? Our buildings are safe and built up to or beyond the code.

Ever since 1999, when this property was given to the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ, we have not knowingly submitted God's church to any lesser authority. Our decision to build without permits from the county was based on our understanding of the Bible and, to a lesser degree, the constitutions of the united States and the State of Florida.

. . .

Even though most other "churches" in the county and Pensacola Christian College see nothing wrong with bowing to Caesar and asking permission of the heathen to obey God's commands we cannot and will not. . . .

Some have said, "Wouldn't it be easier just to pay the $50 permit?" Ask that question to the three Hebrew children who wouldn't bow to the Babylonian idol. Read your Bible and see how much was written from jail for reasons like this. Control is the issue.

We praise God for sending us Maury Adkins to help us in the bewildering world of legalese. Please pray for him, as his health situation is not good. An old injury to his stomach in a car accident years ago has now become a cancerous hernia requiring special surgery in the next few weeks.

Corwin · 02-01-2002, 12:05 PM

Gee.... what a surprise.

Not only have a number of churches tried to avoid building codes in various parts of the country.... but Hovind is a fraud and has been under investigation for tax evasion using more or less this same rationalism. (He claims he is a soverign citizen of God, and is therefore exempt from US taxes. Of course he drives on our roads and tries to spread his lies to our tax funded schools... but that's different...)

Pantera · 02-01-2002, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
The Amish never get permits or inspections of their buildings in any state, including Florida.

Is this true? If so, how do they get away with it? Does the law assume it matters less if an Amish is killed when his house collapses than if it happens to the rest of us? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Toto · 02-01-2002, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pantera:


Is this true? If so, how do they get away with it? Does the law assume it matters less if an Amish is killed when his house collapses than if it happens to the rest of us?

Do you think Dr. Dino would lie?

The Amish tend to live in rural areas where there isn't a lot of government regulation to begin with. They also tend to just ignore regulations they don't like, and sometimes the cost of enforcing these is beyond what the local government cares to invest.

They did get a religiously-based exemption from the liberals on the Supreme Court to take their kids out of school early, but I know of no exemption they have gotten on the basis of their religion for most government regulations.

I found this from Google's cache (couldn't get to the site):

Quote:

When confronted with some law or regulation that does not fit their religious belief, Amish sometimes ignore the law. In some cases, these conflicts escalate until Amish find themselves in court defending their actions. Often court cases have been argued using the basic tenants of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act as grounds for the argument. A wide variety of issues have been negotiated that never get to courts. It is our thinking that these negotiations are more appropriate in terms of resources expended and impact on the Amish than costly, time consuming court proceedings.

Many recent issues that were negotiated or settled in court involve failure to obtain licenses or government permits. This included building permits, licenses to operate a retail food store, permits for manure management, and permits for privy and septic systems. In addition, many cases included such issues as Amish failure to comply with some law or regulation required by the state. Such cases include refusal to use the slow moving vehicle triangle on the backs of buggies, failure to modernize milk houses, failure to modernize Amish school buildings with electric lights, lighted exit signs, and furnaces. These issues have occurred so often that one midwestern state undertook a study to see if Amish might be exempt from certain types of regulations. The result of the study basically indicated that while religious beliefs were effected by many of the cases, favoring one religion over another is prohibited by the very constitutional amendment that allows for religious freedom. Thus, the state had not pursued this option farther and conflicts continue to arise. This seems to be more the case when Amish start new settlements where they have not previously lived. Unfamiliarity with Amish beliefs and traditions are often at the basis for misunderstandings between Amish and their neighbors or local officials.

And I found this on <a href="http://members.aol.com/vlntryst/wn68.html" target="_blank">an anarchist site</a>:

Quote:

Even the Old Order Amish, a religious group which largely rejects the use of modern automobiles and trucks, find themselves involved with the modern state, much to their displeasure. Though the Amish are not required to have driver's licenses, in at least some areas their horse-drawn buggies must be tagged before they can legally be driven upon state roads. The Amish have also been fighting building codes and permits for decades. In some localities the local licensing authorities even demand that they obtain permits to erect outhouses. Another tenet of their religion looks askance upon insurance. Hence, they refused to become voluntary participants in the federal Social Security program when it was extended to them in the early 1950s. After the seizure and forced sale of some Amish horses and farm implements, the U.S. Congress passed legislation that exempted the Amish from contributions to Social Security. Nevertheless, this did not relieve the Amish from the liability of filing and paying federal income taxes. They are still expected to obtain and use a federal identification number upon their tax returns (though the IRS has a special form for those Amish who refuse to get a Social Security number), and if they employ non-Amish hired-help they still must make payments to the Social Security system on behalf of those employees. So, if an organized and long-recognized religious community, like the Amish, cannot insulate and isolate itself from the statist beast, what are those with voluntaryist sentiments to do? What chance is there to remain unlicensed, unnumbered, and untaxed?

Pantera · 02-01-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
Do you think Dr. Dino would lie?

Duh! I'm sorry, it's Friday afternoon and it's been a long week. I guess we can put the Amish claim next to the one about chicken cytochrome C being the closest to human cytochrome C.

Kevin Dorner · 02-01-2002, 02:00 PM

One point I didn't see mentioned:

Tha Amish might get away with it because they are an isolationist people that wants as little contact with outsiders as possible. The local governments know this and might take it into account.

However, "Dinosaur Adventureland" is a sort of theme park. The idea is to get the most members of the public (who would not know they were agreeing to visit a structure that may not be built to code) there at once.

So if there was an accident due to improper structure(s), the injured party would sue not only Dinosaur Adventureland's owners, but also the county for failing to ensure it was built to code and permitted, and not closing it for failing to be so. The county will therefore not fail to enforce the permit laws.

[ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]

Henrietta · 02-01-2002, 02:09 PM

I would think they would have to sue God.

Toto · 04-12-2002, 12:32 PM

<a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,50054,00.html" target="_blank">Amish Refuse to Put Reflective Triangles on Buggies</a>

Quote:

EBENSBURG, Pa. — Nearly two dozen Amish men went on trial Wednesday for refusing to put orange reflective triangles on their horse-drawn buggies.

An Amish scholar testified that members of the highly conservative Swartzentruber order consider the 16-inch safety symbol offensive.

. . . Instead of triangles, the group uses gray reflective tape and hang red lanterns on the buggies' sides.

Heath Long, Cambria County assistant district attorney, said the gray reflective tape is an unproven safety measure.

Defense lawyer Donna Doblick, however, said that requirement violates the Swartzentruber's constitutional rights by denying them the right to express themselves.

Donald B. Kraybill, an expert on Amish customs, testified Wednesday that the slow-moving vehicle symbol was considered an affront to the Swartzentruber. In an earlier interview, Kraybill said the safety symbols were as offensive to the Swartzentruber as swastikas were to other people.

. . .

Levi Zook, 52, who acted as the group's spokesman, said they'll leave the state if they lose the case.

. . .

Can someone quote the section of scripture that forbids reflective triangles? Is orange the color of the devil?

Zimyatin · 04-12-2002, 12:50 PM

I'm originally from Florida and I don't think many (if any) Amish live there.

I'd like to see Dr. Dino take this to court and be laughed at.

Corwin · 04-12-2002, 01:02 PM

Couldn't the court demand that Jesus show up himself to assert his rights as a property holder?

Then issue a bench warrant when he doesn't show?

02-01-2002, 02:00 PM	#6
Kevin Dorner Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 762	One point I didn't see mentioned: Tha Amish might get away with it because they are an isolationist people that wants as little contact with outsiders as possible. The local governments know this and might take it into account. However, "Dinosaur Adventureland" is a sort of theme park. The idea is to get the most members of the public (who would not know they were agreeing to visit a structure that may not be built to code) there at once. So if there was an accident due to improper structure(s), the injured party would sue not only Dinosaur Adventureland's owners, but also the county for failing to ensure it was built to code and permitted, and not closing it for failing to be so. The county will therefore not fail to enforce the permit laws. [ February 01, 2002: Message edited by: Kevin Dorner ]</p>

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02-01-2002, 12:05 PM	#2
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Gee.... what a surprise. Not only have a number of churches tried to avoid building codes in various parts of the country.... but Hovind is a fraud and has been under investigation for tax evasion using more or less this same rationalism. (He claims he is a soverign citizen of God, and is therefore exempt from US taxes. Of course he drives on our roads and tries to spread his lies to our tax funded schools... but that's different...)

02-01-2002, 02:09 PM	#7
Henrietta Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: West USA Posts: 380	I would think they would have to sue God.

04-12-2002, 12:50 PM	#9
Zimyatin Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Michigan Posts: 308	I'm originally from Florida and I don't think many (if any) Amish live there. I'd like to see Dr. Dino take this to court and be laughed at.

04-12-2002, 01:02 PM	#10
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Couldn't the court demand that Jesus show up himself to assert his rights as a property holder? Then issue a bench warrant when he doesn't show?

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