Freethought & Rationalism Archive

luvluv · 03-12-2002, 06:00 PM

If God were good, he would not want his children to suffer. If he were all-powerful, he would be able to prevent it. Therefore, God must lack goodness or power or both.

This is the question Lewis Tackles in the Problem of Pain.

I was just wondering what you thought of his first few chapters about why a God desiring free sons would have to admit a world with pain and suffering?

Sephiroth · 03-12-2002, 06:35 PM

That's not the reason why I don't believe in gods but it is a problem for the Christian conception of god. What Lewis doesn't pay attention to is why take Path A which results in people going to Hell as opposed to Path B where nobody has to suffer? Then, of course, there's the various OT atrocities. If he willingly lets one person suffer then he either isn't all-powerful or all-loving. The word "all" is a pretty big word, ya know.

[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Sephiroth ]

ex-preacher · 03-12-2002, 06:39 PM

So, luvluv, will God have "free sons" in heaven?

DRFseven · 03-12-2002, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Sephiroth: What Lewis doesn't pay attention to is why take Path A which results in people going to Hell as opposed to Path B where nobody has to suffer?

Oh, Sephiroth, don't you realize that it's just all beyond us? God works in mysterious ways! It only APPEARS irrational because we're stuck with human brains that are incapable of figuring out God-stuff. And, anyway, we're probably just bitter because we've been hurt very badly in some way, and that is what is preventing us from accepting God. This is evident in the way we are obsessed with discussing God; if we really didn't believe, we wouldn't care enough to discuss it. We have a very negative view of life!

Pomp · 03-12-2002, 08:17 PM

luv, are you going to respond to turtonm, ohwilleke, and I in the other C.S. Lewis thread? We all have unaswered posts to you there. I'd personally like to wrap that one up before getting into another discussion.

Vorkosigan · 03-12-2002, 11:26 PM

Especially about C. S. Lewis! Ugh.

The problem of evil is a serious one for the Christian WorldView. We have lots of articles on it here at Infidels.

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/evil.html" target="_blank"> Discussions of the Argument from Evil</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj1.shtml" target="_blank">Review of the Case for Christ</a>

More from the above:
<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj6.shtml" target="_blank">Review of the Case for Christ -- Gerkin again</a>

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj7.shtml" target="_blank">Review of the Case for Christ -- Gerkin again</a>

Read a few of these, and explain why these don't deal effectively with what Lewis says. <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html" target="_blank">Mark Vuletic's</a> is probably the most hilarious -- deliciously biting. Pomp, you should take five minutes and read it. You won't regret it.

Michael

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]

Pomp · 03-13-2002, 12:30 AM

turtonm,

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html" target="_blank">Mark Vuletic's</a> is probably the most hilarious -- deliciously biting. Pomp, you should take five minutes and read it. You won't regret it.

I've read it. It's one of those things that's so perverse that I can't help but laugh. It does make a nice analogy to the POE, though. Too often, apologists weasel out of the POE with emotional appeals to their deity's "goodness" or "justice" and I think the Vulteic piece does a nice job of recasting the Problem in terms that make it difficult to avoid how depraved their arguments sound when not couched in theological language.

Just for a laugh, I think i'm going to look up what Lewis has to say on the Problem.

Vorkosigan · 03-13-2002, 06:21 AM

<a href="http://www.faithquest.com/home.cfm" target="_blank">Here</a> is a huge collection of articles by prominent Christian philosophers and theologians which you might enjoy, Luvluv. I'd like you to note two things. First, the discussions are at a very high level. Second, C. S. Lewis is nowhere represented. Bring some of these articles to the Philosophy forum or here; we're always happiest when rippin' theistic arguments to tatters.

Michael

PS: I believe Pojman is an atheist now, having changed his position recently.

Vorkosigan · 03-13-2002, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompous Bastard:
turtonm,

Just for a laugh, I think i'm going to look up what Lewis has to say on the Problem.

I predict you won't get much past the opening chapter, when he brilliantly decides the Trilemma is a good argument.

Michael

Pomp · 03-13-2002, 10:41 AM

turtonm,

I predict you won't get much past the opening chapter, when he brilliantly decides the Trilemma is a good argument.

Hahahahahahahahahahaha...gasp...snort...whew!

Perhaps I'm glad that I decided I was more interested in sleep than in C. S. Lewis last night.

Edited to add: Not to be rude, of course, luv (and other C. S. Lewis fans out there) but the Trilemma is one of the most simplistic theistic arguments I've ever seen and ignores a host of possibilites other than the three it deals with.

[ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Pompous Bastard ]

03-12-2002, 06:00 PM	#1
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Has anyone read The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis? If God were good, he would not want his children to suffer. If he were all-powerful, he would be able to prevent it. Therefore, God must lack goodness or power or both. This is the question Lewis Tackles in the Problem of Pain. I was just wondering what you thought of his first few chapters about why a God desiring free sons would have to admit a world with pain and suffering?

03-12-2002, 06:35 PM	#2
Sephiroth Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 625	That's not the reason why I don't believe in gods but it is a problem for the Christian conception of god. What Lewis doesn't pay attention to is why take Path A which results in people going to Hell as opposed to Path B where nobody has to suffer? Then, of course, there's the various OT atrocities. If he willingly lets one person suffer then he either isn't all-powerful or all-loving. The word "all" is a pretty big word, ya know. [ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: Sephiroth ]</p>

03-12-2002, 11:26 PM	#6
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	Especially about C. S. Lewis! Ugh. The problem of evil is a serious one for the Christian WorldView. We have lots of articles on it here at Infidels. <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/nontheism/atheism/evil.html" target="_blank"> Discussions of the Argument from Evil</a> <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj1.shtml" target="_blank">Review of the Case for Christ</a> More from the above: <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj6.shtml" target="_blank">Review of the Case for Christ -- Gerkin again</a> <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/obj7.shtml" target="_blank">Review of the Case for Christ -- Gerkin again</a> Read a few of these, and explain why these don't deal effectively with what Lewis says. <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html" target="_blank">Mark Vuletic's</a> is probably the most hilarious -- deliciously biting. Pomp, you should take five minutes and read it. You won't regret it. Michael [ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: turtonm ]</p>

03-13-2002, 10:41 AM	#10
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	turtonm, I predict you won't get much past the opening chapter, when he brilliantly decides the Trilemma is a good argument. Hahahahahahahahahahaha...gasp...snort...whew! Perhaps I'm glad that I decided I was more interested in sleep than in C. S. Lewis last night. Edited to add: Not to be rude, of course, luv (and other C. S. Lewis fans out there) but the Trilemma is one of the most simplistic theistic arguments I've ever seen and ignores a host of possibilites other than the three it deals with. [ March 13, 2002: Message edited by: Pompous Bastard ]</p>

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03-12-2002, 06:39 PM	#3
ex-preacher Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: University of Arkansas Posts: 1,033	So, luvluv, will God have "free sons" in heaven?

03-12-2002, 08:17 PM	#5
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	luv, are you going to respond to turtonm, ohwilleke, and I in the other C.S. Lewis thread? We all have unaswered posts to you there. I'd personally like to wrap that one up before getting into another discussion.

03-13-2002, 12:30 AM	#7
Pomp Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Indianapolis area Posts: 3,468	turtonm, <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html" target="_blank">Mark Vuletic's</a> is probably the most hilarious -- deliciously biting. Pomp, you should take five minutes and read it. You won't regret it. I've read it. It's one of those things that's so perverse that I can't help but laugh. It does make a nice analogy to the POE, though. Too often, apologists weasel out of the POE with emotional appeals to their deity's "goodness" or "justice" and I think the Vulteic piece does a nice job of recasting the Problem in terms that make it difficult to avoid how depraved their arguments sound when not couched in theological language. Just for a laugh, I think i'm going to look up what Lewis has to say on the Problem.

03-13-2002, 06:21 AM	#8
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	<a href="http://www.faithquest.com/home.cfm" target="_blank">Here</a> is a huge collection of articles by prominent Christian philosophers and theologians which you might enjoy, Luvluv. I'd like you to note two things. First, the discussions are at a very high level. Second, C. S. Lewis is nowhere represented. Bring some of these articles to the Philosophy forum or here; we're always happiest when rippin' theistic arguments to tatters. Michael PS: I believe Pojman is an atheist now, having changed his position recently.

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