Freethought & Rationalism Archive

RufusAtticus · 02-28-2003, 12:53 PM

Espn has a story here

(Mods if this belongs in Politics....)

Krieger · 02-28-2003, 01:15 PM

I first read about her a couple of weeks ago... she is a real life hero.

RufusAtticus · 02-28-2003, 01:26 PM

I find it funny that people who object to her action say that sports figures shouldn't make political statements on the court. But of course they have no problem with the politicial statement being made by the other nine players.

The early Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire not for their religion but because they were seen as unpatriotic and subversive for simply refusing to make even token offerings to the Imperial pantheon. Oh the irony. . . .

Feather · 03-02-2003, 10:51 AM

The flag represents more than just the foreign policy of the US as propagated by Herr Chimp and his puppetmasters and puppets, and any predecessors thereof.

I can't help but agree that her turning her back on it is representative of something more than foreign policy disagreements. If it isn't, she needs to consider the form of her protest more closely. And while others' perceptions of her opinions don't matter, others' perceptions of her methods do matter. I perceive her method to be little more than an emotional outburst and a poorly executed one at that.

I wonder what she is actively doing to change the foreign policy. I wonder if she's aware of the all the other benefits to living in American society and how the flag represents them as well. I see symbolic gestures like this as little more than empty emotional outbursts. Kind of like the vitriolic reaction to the 9th circuit's ruling on the Pledge.

Of course, the value of the symbol of the flag is another issue entirely. But in the context of this person, it is clear she believes the flag means one thing. Exactly. And that's a shame, because it shows a lack of comprehension of all the other things America is.

But that doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to protest and "speak" her views freely.

I also thought the bit about the self-proclaimed Viet Nam Veteran in the article was just hypocritical. How is this person cowardly for confronting somebody who is taking advantage of spectators' captive audience status with an opposing view? I find it remarkable that he is described as a bully and in a round about way as having "hidden motivations." If the game were an amateur game for the ghetto kids without an audience, Smith's turning her back would be meaningless. But she knows the audience has paid and is present for a sports event, but nevertheless uses the opportunity to impose upon them her viewpoint. Why can't he do this also without being labelled cowardly and "not a real red-blooded American?"

I don't see a difference, really.

Grad Student Humanist · 03-02-2003, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus
I find it funny that people who object to her action say that sports figures shouldn't make political statements on the court. But of course they have no problem with the politicial statement being made by the other nine players.

I bet they also have no problem with players making overtly religious statements on the court.

Koiyotnik · 03-02-2003, 07:00 PM

I took the mini-poll offered with the article, and was appalled with the results:

Quote:

1) Are athletic events an appropriate place for political protest?

65.1% No
34.9% Yes

2) What is your opinion of Toni Smith's protest?

55.7% I disagree with her methods and views
19.7% I agree with her methods and views
14.6% I disagree with her methods but agree with her views
10.1% I agree with her methods but disagree with her views

3) If you were Toni Smith's coach, how would you handle the situation?

42.5% Ask her to stay in the locker room until tip-off
33.9% Support her
23.6% Suspend her or kick her off the team

4) How would you compare Toni Smith's actions to Sheryl Crow wearing a 'No War' emblem on her guitar strap during her performance at the Grammy's?

42.6% Neither athletes nor celebrities should make public political statements
41.2% They are both acceptable
16.2% It's more acceptable for artists and celebrities than athletes to make political statements

5) If Toni Smith had worn a 'No War' patch on her jersey instead of refusing to face the flag, would that be any different?

40.4% A patch is acceptable but turning your back on the flag is not
28.9% No different; still inappropriate
21.9% No different; still appropriate
8.8% Turning your back on the flag is acceptable but altering your jersey is not

6) Would you risk your job to take a political stand for something you believe in?

62.4% Yes
37.6% No

7) Should the U.S. go to war with Iraq?

61.0% Yes
39.0% No

Total Votes: 59,594

Appalled, but not surprised, I'm sad to say.

Grad Student Humanist · 03-02-2003, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koiyotnik
I took the mini-poll offered with the article, and was appalled with the results:

Appalled, but not surprised, I'm sad to say.

The people in this country never cease to amaze me.

According to this poll, 43% believe that athletes and celebrities should not make public political statements. Why, pray tell, is that? Since when did athletes and celebrities lose their First Amendment rights? Must be at the same time that the American public, in their infinite wisdom, decided that athletes/celebrities had no right to privacy either.

How many of these geniuses, I wonder, have no problem with Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter turning their public political statements into careers? They're celebrities too. And not the brightest or best informed people in the world either. Hannity, for one, is as dumb as a sack of doorknobs. If he ever has an original thought . . . well, there's a first time for everything I suppose.

AzJeff · 03-03-2003, 09:49 AM

The night this story broke, one of the local TV sports-news guys gave out a number for people to call and "vent".

During the late news, they played some of the recordings and they were disgusting:

"Kick her out of the country."
"If she doesn't like America, she should just leave."

...etc.etc.etc.

The newscaster said out of the 100 or so calls they got, 97 of them were negative.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

ocean · 03-03-2003, 10:55 AM

It is sick and disgusting how many people are for this murderous massacre in Iraq. There is absoltely no reson to go to war with anyone, for any reason! I agree 100% with her views, I am Anti-American and proud of it!

Gunnaheave · 03-03-2003, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Grad Student Humanist
I bet they also have no problem with players making overtly religious statements on the court.

Exactly on both counts!

02-28-2003, 12:53 PM	#1
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Basketball Player protests American Flag Espn has a story here (Mods if this belongs in Politics....)

03-03-2003, 10:55 AM	#9
ocean Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 22	WAR IS TERRORISM It is sick and disgusting how many people are for this murderous massacre in Iraq. There is absoltely no reson to go to war with anyone, for any reason! I agree 100% with her views, I am Anti-American and proud of it!

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02-28-2003, 01:15 PM	#2
Krieger Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: ... Posts: 2,191	I first read about her a couple of weeks ago... she is a real life hero.

02-28-2003, 01:26 PM	#3
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	I find it funny that people who object to her action say that sports figures shouldn't make political statements on the court. But of course they have no problem with the politicial statement being made by the other nine players. The early Christians were persecuted by the Roman Empire not for their religion but because they were seen as unpatriotic and subversive for simply refusing to make even token offerings to the Imperial pantheon. Oh the irony. . . .

03-02-2003, 10:51 AM	#4
Feather Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 1,827	The flag represents more than just the foreign policy of the US as propagated by Herr Chimp and his puppetmasters and puppets, and any predecessors thereof. I can't help but agree that her turning her back on it is representative of something more than foreign policy disagreements. If it isn't, she needs to consider the form of her protest more closely. And while others' perceptions of her opinions don't matter, others' perceptions of her methods do matter. I perceive her method to be little more than an emotional outburst and a poorly executed one at that. I wonder what she is actively doing to change the foreign policy. I wonder if she's aware of the all the other benefits to living in American society and how the flag represents them as well. I see symbolic gestures like this as little more than empty emotional outbursts. Kind of like the vitriolic reaction to the 9th circuit's ruling on the Pledge. Of course, the value of the symbol of the flag is another issue entirely. But in the context of this person, it is clear she believes the flag means one thing. Exactly. And that's a shame, because it shows a lack of comprehension of all the other things America is. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't be able to protest and "speak" her views freely. I also thought the bit about the self-proclaimed Viet Nam Veteran in the article was just hypocritical. How is this person cowardly for confronting somebody who is taking advantage of spectators' captive audience status with an opposing view? I find it remarkable that he is described as a bully and in a round about way as having "hidden motivations." If the game were an amateur game for the ghetto kids without an audience, Smith's turning her back would be meaningless. But she knows the audience has paid and is present for a sports event, but nevertheless uses the opportunity to impose upon them her viewpoint. Why can't he do this also without being labelled cowardly and "not a real red-blooded American?" I don't see a difference, really.

03-03-2003, 09:49 AM	#8
AzJeff Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Phoenix, Az Posts: 413	The night this story broke, one of the local TV sports-news guys gave out a number for people to call and "vent". During the late news, they played some of the recordings and they were disgusting: "Kick her out of the country." "If she doesn't like America, she should just leave." ...etc.etc.etc. The newscaster said out of the 100 or so calls they got, 97 of them were negative. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

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