anti-X

Hello,

I've notice for the last year that many TV-preachers are claiming that America was founded as a "christian country".

Of course, "which christian" sect is not made explicit. Many current sects didn't even exist then!

The founding fathers were mostly diests or pietists are not "christian" as we, 200+ years later, think-of or imagine what "christian" is!

Seperately: if there were no "church", would there be no "state" ?

So, what political or economic value does the "church" have?

Shadowy Man

If that is true then it is very suspicious indeed that they made absolutely no mention of it in the founding document of the country, namely the Constitution!!

BibleBelted

Yes, the Christian Reconstructionists are working tirelessly to convince otherwise normal people that America is a "Christian Nation."

If you are willing to help fight this battle (and I sincerely hope you are) you should be prepared to be hit with some wild and dishonest use of the founding fathers words, as well as some outright lies and phony "quotations". David Barton's Wallbuilders web-site is where they get most of their (bogus) information.

You might want to familiarize yourself with some of their common tactics, such as saying "separation is not in the constitution" (the word "separation" is not there, but the First Amendment is pretty clear to most people with a functioning brain) the "one-way wall" argument, which is that the government cannot interfere with the church but the church can do as it pleases with the government, etc.

Their favorite tactic is to quote-mine the founders (and their near-contemporaries) to give the impression they were all "devout" Christians who would be horrified to find we've "kicked god out of our schools."

If you're looking for information, here is a good place to start. Let me know if you want to more.

Basics of Separation

Pay close attention to this section on misquoters:

Misquoting the Founders

Does anyone out there have a copy of that stupid e-mail from David Barton that's been circulating on the web for (it seems like) years? That is one of the prime examples of how full of crap the Reconstructionists are.

crazyfingers

Ask them to find the word God or Jesus Christ in the US Constitution. It's not in there.

It would not be correct to say that "most" of the founders were deists or pietists. I think that most were chiristian. However it is fair to say that many of the most influential were not Christain.

James Madison - Deist
Thomas Jefferson - Deist
Thomas Payne - desit
Ben Franklin - Desit or Universalist
Washington - he never said much at all. If he was a christian be didn't care much.


Along with the claim that the US was founded as a chistian nation, christians often say that it was founded on Christian principles.

However I've never received even an attempt to answer the following question:




If the US was founded on Christian Principles, please locate the following founding principles in the Bible.

• Representative democracy (The bible has Kings)
  
• Freedom of religion (vs the 1st commandment which is not
  freedom of religion)
  
• Separation of powers (It's all in the king)
  
• Habeus corpus
  
• Freedom of speech
  
• Free press
  
• The right of the people to peaceably assemble
  
• Protection from unreasonable search and seizure
  
• Trial by jury
  
• Bicameral legislation
  
• Limited executive power
  

They will not answer that question.



You can also ask them the reverse.

Please find the 10 Commandments in the US Constitution.

• ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
  
• TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
  
• THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
  
• FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
  
• FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
  
• SIX: 'You shall not murder.'
  
• SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'
  
• EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'
  
• NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
  
• TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your
  

Note that the first 4 items would be unconstitiontional to enact into law. #5 is not law, Number # is illegal but neither is it a solely christian idea. #7 is not against the law but in some places used to be. # is against the law but neither is it uniquely christian.
#9 is not against the law unless in cases or purgury. But lying is not generally against the law. #10 is capitalism. The US ecomony is based on coveting.

This link is the best website I know of separation between church and state.

Here

Note the Treaty of Tripoli, 1796, 1806

ARTICLE 11.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

pariah

Although you are right about some of the founding fathers being deists, it is irrelevant that others were Christian. The Christians still did not want church and state to be together--they had seen what happened in Europe under theocracy (the crusades...), and sure as hell didn't want to repeat that.

Good stuff biblebelted, good stuff. Thanks.

anti-X

BibleBelted and Crazyfingers:

Thank you both for the info...I printed it out!

Thanx again

SLD

I think it's true that most, if not all, of the leadership of the revolutionary generation were not Christians - at least not as we would understand that term today. The most religious among them may have been John Adams, and he eventually become something of a Unitarian, at least in thought if not in actual practice.

However, there were many men who had a hand in drafting our Constitution and even the First Amendment itself. Madison may have been the leader behind the Bill of Rights, but his original version was not the one finally adopted in the conference committee - no one knows what went on in that committee nor the debate on the exact phraseology.

What I would argue is that it is not all that relevant. Important and helpful maybe, but in the end we do not live in the 18th Century anymore (despite the wishes of some very strange people). The founders knew that our country would change and they left us a broad vaguely worded document that is subject to a variety of interpretations. Thomas Jefferson once proposed that we should have a Constitutional Convention every 20 years so that each generation could decide for itself how it would be governed. "The earth belongs to the living," was one of his many mantras. Madison convinced him that such a structure could not function - especially since the economy would virtually shut down every twenty years until after the convention as people wondered whether their contracts or property would be secure or not. Instead, they realized that the Constitution would be interpreted in the light of how it worked over many decades of experience. Madison refused to publish his notes on the Constitutional Convention because he did not believe that the Courts should interpret the Constitution only as he and the other drafters saw it. In short, he was not an originalist or strict constructionalist the way Justice Scalia and other conservatives are today.

We would be far better off if we were to adopt Madison's and Jefferson's views on the matter rather than attempt to try to find out what it was they "really" meant in the Constitution. The fact is that the original wording meant different things to different founders and trying to find out the "true" meaning of the language is a useless exercise.

SLD

catalyst

http://www.infidels.org/library/hist...ginia_act.html


http://www.postfun.com/worbois.html

anti-X

Hi, SLD,

I looked-up religious affiliation in the almanac for the first presidents,
Washington, Episcopalian
Jefferson, Diest
The other 3, Unitarian

SLD

Technically Washington and Madison were "Episcopalians". They even served on their respective vestries at their local churches. But that doesn't mean that they subscribed to the tenets of the church. Washington in particular was known for not attending to communion nor to actual praying. Madison never talked at all about having faith in Jesus at all. They both gave political lip service to Christianity, but most historians hold that they were in reality deists.

Again, none would be classified as Christians today - certainly not the fundamental kind, but likely not the mainstream protestant kind either.

SLD