Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Mr.Kitchen · 02-27-2002, 08:04 PM

I have come to the conclusion that one can not be a christian and retain their honor.

I am not refering to some instance of immorality, that would prove nothing. My argument is simple.

1) Either god is just in punishing those who go to hell(or whatever your interpritation my bring to bear) or He falls to the arguments from evil.

2) If god is just in his punishment then humans who would go to hell without Jesus's help/forgiveness/grace deserve to go.

3) It is dishonorable to avoid a punishment or harsh fate that one deserves.
------------------------------------------------

Therefore, to accept jesus's offer of forgiveness would be dishonorable.

I care only for two things those I love and my honor. No one can take your honor unless you let them. I shall keep mine regardless of the cost.

02-27-2002, 08:30 PM

The truth is that the law convicts and we condemn ourself and God is just having a good time while we do this.

God has nothing to do with evil and evil is a human concept conjectured by our ego awareness. As animal man there is no evil or animals would not survive for long from a human perspective.

Ojuice5001 · 03-01-2002, 05:34 PM

Completely true. Christian evangelists must be counting on people's fear of hell to make them not think of this consideration. (That is probably one reason hell has traditionally been so horrible.) I wish they would address this issue. I think that many people (including myself until just now) have thought of this but never expressed their thought.

I know it's unsurprising, but I didn't understand what Amos was saying.

Can anyone explain it?

Eudaimonist · 03-01-2002, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001:
I know it's unsurprising, but I didn't understand what Amos was saying.

Can anyone explain it?

Sorry, I only understand Amos about 10% of the time, and this isn't one of those times.

Egoinos · 03-01-2002, 06:35 PM

Maybe he's regurgitating Augustine's argument about evil being a privation of the good, not a thing which exists in and of itself?

Mr.Kitchen · 03-01-2002, 07:57 PM

The reasonI didn't respond to him is that I did not understand what he was saying either. I never have been able to understand amos.

Heleilu · 03-01-2002, 08:00 PM

I think I get what he's saying this time.

1) God doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves for violating the law. The condemnation is the guilt felt after breaking the law, and entirely self-imposed. God just watches us from the sidelines.

2) Evil is a human concept, not an absolute, personifiable force like most fundies seem to think. Without sentience and self-awareness there would be no recognition of evil, thus no self-condemnation.

The logic undergirding these good ideas still eludes me.

Triple Six · 03-02-2002, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Heleilu:
\
The logic undergirding these good ideas still eludes me.

Logic and Amos, I'm afraid they don't share the same postcode. Heleilu, I salute you for even getting close to interpreting one of his pearls of wisdom. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

sullster · 03-02-2002, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
The truth is that the law convicts and we condemn ourself and God is just having a good time while we do this.

God has nothing to do with evil and evil is a human concept conjectured by our ego awareness. As animal man there is no evil or animals would not survive for long from a human perspective.

An attempt at Amos interpretation:
Amos's god has created laws which humans are unaware of and when they violate them he enjoys seeing them suffer. Amos's god is a nihilistic pervert.

Although Amos's god created the universe, he didn't create evil, yet the god did create the previously mentioned laws. Evil is created by man because he an animal man and animals......uh I am utterly lost. Forget it. Can someone help me here. Sorry.

I still think that Amos's god is a nihilistic pervert.

Illithid · 03-05-2002, 09:49 PM

So... _I_ am Amos's God? Oh, no, I'm just created in his image.

02-27-2002, 08:04 PM	#1
Mr.Kitchen Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Oxford, Mississippi Posts: 172	Honor and christianity. I have come to the conclusion that one can not be a christian and retain their honor. I am not refering to some instance of immorality, that would prove nothing. My argument is simple. 1) Either god is just in punishing those who go to hell(or whatever your interpritation my bring to bear) or He falls to the arguments from evil. 2) If god is just in his punishment then humans who would go to hell without Jesus's help/forgiveness/grace deserve to go. 3) It is dishonorable to avoid a punishment or harsh fate that one deserves. ------------------------------------------------ Therefore, to accept jesus's offer of forgiveness would be dishonorable. I care only for two things those I love and my honor. No one can take your honor unless you let them. I shall keep mine regardless of the cost.

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02-27-2002, 08:30 PM	#2
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	The truth is that the law convicts and we condemn ourself and God is just having a good time while we do this. God has nothing to do with evil and evil is a human concept conjectured by our ego awareness. As animal man there is no evil or animals would not survive for long from a human perspective.

03-01-2002, 05:34 PM	#3
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Completely true. Christian evangelists must be counting on people's fear of hell to make them not think of this consideration. (That is probably one reason hell has traditionally been so horrible.) I wish they would address this issue. I think that many people (including myself until just now) have thought of this but never expressed their thought. I know it's unsurprising, but I didn't understand what Amos was saying. Can anyone explain it?

03-01-2002, 06:35 PM	#5
Egoinos Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 423	Maybe he's regurgitating Augustine's argument about evil being a privation of the good, not a thing which exists in and of itself?

03-01-2002, 07:57 PM	#6
Mr.Kitchen Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Oxford, Mississippi Posts: 172	The reasonI didn't respond to him is that I did not understand what he was saying either. I never have been able to understand amos.

03-01-2002, 08:00 PM	#7
Heleilu Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Takaliapa, KR Posts: 188	I think I get what he's saying this time. 1) God doesn't condemn us, we condemn ourselves for violating the law. The condemnation is the guilt felt after breaking the law, and entirely self-imposed. God just watches us from the sidelines. 2) Evil is a human concept, not an absolute, personifiable force like most fundies seem to think. Without sentience and self-awareness there would be no recognition of evil, thus no self-condemnation. The logic undergirding these good ideas still eludes me.

03-05-2002, 09:49 PM	#10
Illithid Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: BF, Texas Posts: 161	So... _I_ am Amos's God? Oh, no, I'm just created in his image.

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