seebs

Obviously, I'm an axiom away from agreeing with this, but, at another level... sometimes that can be a real problem. Often, the answer to prayer is "YOU ARE AN ADULT. MAKE YOUR OWN FUCKING DECISIONS."

There was a beautiful scene in some movie (Prophecy II or something, I don't remember but it had Christopher Walken in it), where this woman is being chased by a fallen angel that wants to kill her, and they have a brief conversation:

(her) "When was the last time you heard from God?"
(him) "It's been a while."
(her) "He hasn't stopped talking. You've stopped listening."
(him) "What's he saying?"
(her) "Jump."

So... she jumps, while the angel is holding her, and they fall, and the bad guy angel is impaled on a large sharp thing.

I'm not sure how to explain the implicit relevance; obviously, a staged setting in a movie doesn't exactly describe the real world, and yet, at another level... sometimes surprisingly unlikely advice can be very good advice. If we take the initial example of theists coming here... imagine that I conclude that God "directed" me here. How is this bad advice? It *sounds* like it should be bad, but I've met some awfully cool people, and I've had fun. is that bad?

Anunnaki

seebs:

This would be a good time to point out how movies are the ONLY place a person can witness the alleged supernatural components of Christianity. I wonder why this is.....

Geez! Must everything have to do with you? LOL!

What I meant was that It`s not a bad thing for you as much it`s a bad thing for the rest of us who have to deal with yet one more person hanging around here trying to rationalize and defend your particular take on Christianity.
It makes no difference if you`re a nice guy who talks to us politely or an asshole who screams that we are all going to Hell. The problem is not with the promotional tactics but with the flawed product itself. Nobody here is buying the claims of Christianity no matter how pretty you dress it up and hearing about it from yet another believers particular perspective is tedious to say the least.

I happen to like you and you`re not as "in your face" about it as some others who come through here,but you still wear the coat of the enemy.

freemonkey

Unfortunately, Kally, I think she is. This has been going on for years, with no answer from god as far as anyone can see. I've told her that I think maybe she should figure it out for herself..... <img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

seebs

I dunno. I know people who claim to have seen things that they consider to be supernatural. I've seen things that I find that explanation plausible for. YMMV.

Ahh, but the flaws you are describing are not part of the product, they're part of the bad marketing you've seen for it.

You may find that, if you readjust your sights so that all the extremists are "the enemy", and all the reasonably polite and tolerant people are "my side", that you end up with a much better set of friends, and a much more dangerous set of enemies.

Anunnaki

What flaws did I describe? I said nothing about Jesus and friends missing from the historical record. I also don`t recall saying anything about how the gospel writers assembled their own savior from bits and pieces of earlier mythology.
Marketing really has nothing to do with why *I* don`t buy it unless you are referring to 1st century marketing and product development techniques.

You`re somewhat correct here,but you need to view it from the skeptical unbelievers point of view that sees all religious belief to be rather silly and often quite dangerous in the modern world.

The reasonably polite and more tolerant Christians are of course less dangerous than the fundies,but it`s still terribly frustrating to listen to either one talk about believing.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>

One of the last sane

Unlikely, for as the Arabs say "the friend of my enemy is also my enemy". When push comes to shove, the moderate Christians are all too likely to either actively or passively support the fundies when they persecute the nonbelievers.

schu

I think Andrea Yates got bad advice from her god. From her point of view she did the very best thing she could for her children. She "knew" from her religion that when a child died before the age of reason they would go straight to heaven. She did the only thing she knew to do to give her children eternal bliss. And she sacrificed any chance of happiness on this earth and a place in eternal torment to give this boon to her children. Her omnipotent and omniscient god did nothing to stop her. In fact, her actions were a product of her view of god. Where was the "good" of religion for her? The only people I see who claim to find "good" in religion are those who willfully ignore the sordid, vile, corrupt parts of xianity. The selfsame god who they claim does good in this world also claimed to be responsible for the evil! Maybe when the marshmallow/ salad bar type xians start looking at xianity for the myth it is the people on other end of the spectrum, the Andrea Yates of the world, will stop having support for their belief system. Or you can just say she was crazy. Yea, crazy like the religion she believed in.

braces_for_impact

Typical for apologetics. Oh yeah, I was told the same thing. "God always answers prayers, it may just not be an answer you like". Or "Sometimes the answer is yes, no or maybe later." Or "He answered you, but you aren't listening." All excuses why the "power of prayer" doesn't work. Why even those that have more faith than a mustard seed can't so much as move a sack of sod, much less a mountain.

Never underestimate the power of people to fool themselves. Especially when they are fooling themselfs to believe they are RIGHT.

bonduca

freemonkey, that must be frustrating for you to watch. If she were in a burning building, do you think she'd wait for the fire department to tell her to leave, or decide for herself to run for the exit?

seebs

I guess it depends. Rev. Joshua seems to be pretty actively inclined to stick up for the nonbelievers against the extremists... Many of us have enough clue to have caught on that those people are not doing anyone any good, and need to be encouraged to calm down.

I would guess that all of the Christians I know see the option of not believing as an inalienable right, and would consider it rude to preach at anyone who hadn't asked for preaching. Insofar as I preach around here, I'm doing it on the grounds that anyone posting a complaint about God is implicitly asking what, if any, defense exists... and I still worry about it some times, because, while I enjoy these debates, I don't like to be pushy.

Frankly, in a lot of ways, I'm more threatened by fundies than some of you are. They may think you're heathens; they call *me* a "false teacher" and a sign of the apocolypse.