SecularFuture

The love of Jesus was revealed when he “came to our world as a human being, lived a sinless life, died on the cross, and rose from the dead.” And “because Christ died, our sins can be forgiven, and because He conquered death we can have eternal life.”

That’s a beautiful written and inspiring statement, isn’t it? The bible is, undeniably, a very well written, and inspirational, book. But to the skeptical, and secular, a question still remains that most Christians usually never bother to ask. Does the bible have any pragmatic integrity?

A Christian’s faith in the bible is based on the assumption that the bible was the work of a divine inspiration. And a Christian’s faith in divine inspiration is based on the assumption that personal “divine” experiences, among other religious claims, are valid. But are they?

Self-authenticating God's Spirit through personal experience is not universal-authenticating. God can only become truth, or fact, through a consistent universal experience. Until then, God is nothing more than an assumption?

SecularFuture

THE THEIST CLAIMS THERE IS SOMETHING
THE ATHEIST CLAIMS THERE IS NOTHING

IF YOU CAN’T EMPERICALLY PROVE THAT THERE IS SOMETHING BY DEFAULT THERE IS NOTHING OR UNEXPLANED MYSTERY

Old Example:
Just because you *CLAIM* that invisible flying elephants exist, doesn’t immediately make them exist!

Philosoft

Who knows? The only thing we can say about relevatory experiences is that, at the moment, there is no way to objectively distinguish 'real' revelations from 'fake' ones.

<strong> True.

<strong> God itself may or may not be an existing thing. Absent a "consistent universal experience," the only thing we have is an assumption. Whether the assumption corresponds to reality is unknown.

Amos

True, but "invisible" exist and "elephants" exist and "flying" exist and all we need to do is re-arrange our perception of reality and "immortality" exists -- or mortality could not be conceived to exist!

Amos

But if the unknown exists the known must necessarily exist or we would have no knowledge thereoff. That is, the idea of no God can only be based on the idea of God.

Amos

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At least the second part of your statement is not inspired and is loaded with ignorance. Jesus died to set Christ free (Christ never died) and rose again to be free from sin. The pragmatic integrity of the bible is found in our realization of eternal life for which we must not worship Jesus but follow his footsteps. The experience is universal and is the reason why all mystery religions are transparent and can be compared with each other. It is only when religions remove away from the Universal that they become assumptions.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

SecularFuture,

Your consciousness is not universally-authenticated. There is no objective proof of it and in fact can only be a subjective experience. Are you nothing more than an assumption?


Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

JerryM

But if the unknown exists the known must necessarily exist or we would have no knowledge thereoff. That is, the idea of no God can only be based on the idea of God.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Undoubtedly, the idea of God exists. But that's a far cry from saying the idea is a personal, supernatural entity with sovereign power over the universe and worthy of worship.

Amos

I agree with you whole heartily. We must seperate truth from perversion before we can begin to teach religion. By this I mean that faith needs to point at reality before it can ever be understood and this is no longer true today.

Heathen Dawn

To rephrase the Great Deist, Thomas Paine: written revelation is an oxymoron, for revelation can only be called so by him who experience it. Other than that is hearsay. To say that the Bible is God's revelation is untrue; the Bible is mere hearsay. God's revelation, according to Paine, is Nature.

(He lived in the 18th century. Had he known about Darwinian evolution, he would have come to the modern conclusion that Nature itself is God).