xian

It is very common for Christians to ask atheists "What would it take for you to believe in God"

I want to pose a variation to this question that you may not have heard before. I ask it honestly. Please answer honestly. In return, to show you my good intentions, I will answer any question you have relating to these forums as long as it is asked nicely and honestly.

Probably most atheists here have a criteria for "what it would take" to believe in God. Let us define God as the Greatest Possible Being, possessing attributes of infiniteness, perfection, eternality, etc.

Assume, for a moment that your "What would it take" criteria is satisfied. The God of the Bible exists, and that God is indeed (despite what you may have previously thought) the Greatest Possible Being.

Now, just make this assumption for the sake of debate.

At time T, the Judeo Christian God reveals himself to you according to your criteria.


Now for the questions:

Would you be glad that He exists? .....would it make you happy and relieved to know that the God of the Bible actually does exist as the GPB? If not, what would your feelings be after you realized that the Judeo Christian God exists and the Bible is indeed true?



please answer honestly, I am profoundly curious. And once you answer, feel free to ask me any question in return.

thank you, kind atheists.

philechat

To tell the truth, I would not be glad that the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible actually existed, and I would not be convinced that he is the morally perfect being until he showed himself to be one according to my fallible human criterion. I would be somewhat happier if the Greek gods existed, given their history in inspiring some of the greatest arts existed in our culture, and their ability to commit both good and evil. Moral certitude is not in my dictionary.

If the Bible is true, I would be a Satanist (in the Miltonic sense). Satan is a Prometheus figure who is willing to give paradox to existence, who glorify human passion above what is generally sanctioned by a given culture or belief. If everyone believed only in the Biblegod this world would not only NOT be diverse, but become as dry and dumb as bread crumbs.

Bill Snedden

I suppose that might depend in part on what you mean when you say "the Bible is indeed true." Does that mean true in a literal sense? 6 days of creation, don't wear clothes of two different cloths, stone disobedient children, etc. true?

I think any rational person would be absolutely horrified to discover that such a miserable creature actually existed.

Now, true as in "qualitatively inspired", meaning that it was a chronicle of an ancient peoples attempts to understand the divine presence in their lives might be a different story, but I suppose that would depend upon what God's character is actually like, instead of how it was only imperfectly understood and chronicled by those pre-modern peoples.

If his character was truly as believed by most liberal Christians (loving, awesome, wondrous, worthy of worship, etc) despite what a literal reading of the Bible would seem to suggest, then I think he and I would get along just fine.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Jobar

xian, let me divide the Bible into the NT and the OT, because the god in the OT is far more primitive, capricious, and nasty than the image presented in the NT.

I would stand up and spit in the OT God's eye. My own admittedly imperfect ethics and morality are far better than His. And since I'm not Jewish, it wouldn't really matter, because I'd be damned (or possibly just destroyed) anyway.

There are many parts of the NT which I find objectionable, and many parts which contradict other parts. But many of the teachings of Jesus are admirable; unoriginal, but decent guides for human behaviour. 'Do good to those who persecute you.' 'Be meek as lambs but wise as foxes.'

So if the God who revealed Himself was the one with Christ-like aspect, I would have many questions, but would not immediately reject this version as simply Satan wearing a halo.

OK, I have answered you as straightforwardly as I can. Now a question for you. Is there some awful crime, or terrible disaster, or personal loss, which you or the world might suffer, which would cause you to doubt the existence of your deity, or indeed any deity? Say all the members of the Southern Baptist Convention were killed in an earthquake, or some terrorist nuked the Vatican. Or you or some member of your family was diagnosed with some incurable and agonizing cancer. Do you think your faith is proof against any hand the world might deal you?

xian

wow, very honest responses. thank you everyone.

"Now a question for you. Is there some awful crime, or terrible disaster, or personal loss, which you or the world might suffer, which would cause you to doubt the existence of your deity, or indeed any deity?"

This already happened as I lost my wife whom I loved dearly. SHe just walked out on me. I did my best to show her (not just tell her) that I loved her. I went to counselling, saw my church leaders, and did everything I could to save my marriage. I was in love with her as much as I was on the day we were married. She lost her faith in God (though I don't think she is an atheist, she just lost her interest in Christianity). This hurt me deeply, but I realized that her being a Christian was not a requirement for me to love her and be a good husband to her. I would have accepted her as an atheist. But it was no use. She was determined to leave. I prayed constantly day and night and truly believed that she would return- that God would change her and that everything would work out. I believed this was all a test. So she left me and for the next 8 months, I continued to wear my wedding ring, staying faithful to her, even though she took her ring off the second she was out the front door.

8 months later, after believing and waiting, and hoping...divorce papers came, and she was gone for good.

i doubted God....

"Why would you let this happen to me? You hate divorce! What must I do?"

i didn't think i would make it, as i nearly loaded my Glock 27 to put to my head. it was as if tomorrow was stolen from me, yet I couldn't shoot (even though I wanted to). I still went for late night walks at times...and my faith just wouldn't die. I would still look at the stars and know that God was there, and that suffering is part of life because there is evil in this world. True, real evil. When suffering touches you personally, you feel like you are being "picked on" and where I initially questioned God, I realized that I was relating to the story of Job. In my limited vision I saw these brief moments of suffering as something profound, when it was actually pale in comparison to the eternity that awaits me. I suffered in part due to my mistakes I made as a husband, and as a result I have grown tremendously. I still pray for my ex-wife, but my faith has been renewed and already I have been able to use my experiences to help someone else. It is ironic, that it was during this time of sorrow that I had my first epiphony in 10 years. It was amazing, and powerful. It is hard to describe an epiphany, but it was extremely cool, nontheless.

I honestly, truly do not think any tragic event could cause me to doubt my belief in God. I suppose if the entire world were to die except me, then I probably would. But I honestly do not know since I already went through the worst loss that I have had in my life so far, and still believe.

The only event that would truly cause me to abandon my Christian faith (that I can think of) would be for you to show me the dead body of Jesus. However, that will be hard to do.

Silent Dave

It depends. If by the Judeo-Christian God you mean the God of the strict fundamentalists, hellfire and brimstone and genocide of those who are displeasing, I would be unhappy and nervous. If by the JC God you mean the touchy-feely happy-joy God of the salad bar Christians, I would be happy -- and nervous, at first. I've been an atheist for a number of years now, and I've gotten used to the idea of no sky-fairy eyes looking over my shoulder at every second. It would take me a while to get un-used to the idea, however benevolent the sky-fairy, and derive comfort from the infinite voyeurism as I once did. But if that's what it took to maintain rational integrity, I would do it.

I have two questions for you. First, why do you choose as your sole criterion for falsification of your belief something which you know full well, given two millenia of decomposition, would be not just difficult but almost certainly impossible to satisfy even if your beliefs were false? And second, did you really own a Glock 27?


Dave

HRG

Let us first hear your objective and effective definition of "greater than" (including that it is a linear ordering) and "perfect".

Let's than hear an argument why it can't be possible that for every being, a greater one is possible.

Until then, I would kindly ask you not to mention the term GPB in
your posts. It is no more defined than "quizzle".
Which version ? Catholic, Protestant, Greek Orthdox etc.
Has he appointed the Pope his vicar on Earth or hasn't he ?
Is Maccabees a part of the Bible or isn't it ?
What is the criterion for salvation - works ("feeding the hungry etc." according to Jesus) or faith (according to Paul) ?

IOW, "Judeo-Christian God" is not better defined than "Greatest Possible Being"
How can I answer your questions if they contain undefined terms ? It is like asking me if I prefer that squizzles exist.

Regards,
HRG.

Jamie_L

Honestly, I don't know. There are so many different versions and interpretations of the Christian God, that I cant' say if I'd be happy or not until I found out exactly what kind of God he was.

Like many have said, there are all kinds of things in the Bible that are bothersome or even abhorent. However, modern Christianity has all kinds of other views about God.

I think if God turned out to really be benevolent, and His revelation to me made me believe that truth, I would be happy. What would make me really happy would be if in revealing Himself, He answered all the nagging questions like: Why is there so much suffering? Why is do you remain hidden? Etc.

You have mentioned God being the GPB. I'm not entirely clear on what that would mean, and the possibility of the GBP still seems to conflict with observed reality. But, if the GBP used all his powers to make me understand how this all fits together, and I felt this GPB offered hope for a better life for me and those I care about, then I would be happy.

I don't have a question for you right now. Maybe I'll come up with one later.

Jamie

happyboy

if the God of the bible was literally real, i'd become a dedicated satanist. a monstrous butcher like YHWH deserves nothing less than to be murdered the first chance we get.

happyboy

Tabula_rasa

OK, hypothetically, the God of the Bible exists. Nope, I couldn't say that I'd be happy about it at all.

Of course, hypothetically, I would at this point be dead and standing in front of Him for the final ruling of my sins. I think I would safely and with a clear conscience say to said God that my sins amount to a grain of sand compared to the mountain of crimes against humanity that He has wrought upon His own creation.

Hypothetically.

Tabula_rasa