Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Buckster · 03-31-2002, 12:34 PM

I've many times seen the quote attributed to Jefferson:

"The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."

When referenced, it is attributed to be in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr.

However, having gone through the 3 letters I can find from Jefferson to Carr, none contain this quote.

Does anyone know where this quote originates? Better still, does anyone have a link to the full text of the letter, date, circumstances or any of that?:

Thanks in advance for any help.

AspenMama · 04-03-2002, 08:59 AM

As this hasn't had any responses, I will try moving it to another forum.

Buckster · 04-09-2002, 03:42 PM

Well, that's a bummer. I guess if the answer isn't here, then the answer is probably that it's a fictional quote.

It's gonna be a lot of work getting the word out to all those web sites. I'd like to try to keep our integrity higher than the crap we see from the other side of the fence...

shoot.

JohnR · 04-09-2002, 04:13 PM

I have never heard that one. Here is a interesting one.
I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823
I found that here<a href="http://www.nobelbeliefs.com/jefferson.htm" target="_blank">Jefferson Quotes</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/4619/religion/quotes.html" target="_blank">These are interesting also.</a>
I could not find the three headed quote though.

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: JohnR ]

Bokonon · 04-09-2002, 06:48 PM

<a href="http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jeflxx.htm" target="_blank">http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jeflxx.htm</a>

A rather extensive site containing Jefferson letters, including 3 to Peter Carr (probably the 3 you found). The quote appears to be fake.

cydonia · 04-09-2002, 07:30 PM

Why would anyone want to fake a quote? I know this sounds naieve but it just doesn't make sense to me, no matter what side it's coming from. What's the point? Yes, it does sound naieve. I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror if i did something like that. Oh well.

FarSeeker · 04-09-2002, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buckster:
Well, that's a bummer. I guess if the answer isn't here, then the answer is probably that it's a fictional quote.

It's gonna be a lot of work getting the word out to all those web sites. I'd like to try to keep our integrity higher than the crap we see from the other side of the fence...

shoot.

Too Late!

IvanK · 04-10-2002, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Buckster:
However, having gone through the 3 letters I can find from Jefferson to Carr, none contain this quote.

From the Internet it appears that people may be at least misattributing this or mistaking it for a part of the Jefferson to Carr letter that speaks of religion making "one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites." Since Jefferson's letters have been collected it should be fairly easy to locate the print volume, go through the letters to Carr and see if there is one with the more strident quote referenced. In any case the quote does not appear to be out of line with Jefferson's general sentiment toward organized religion.

Seeker196 · 04-10-2002, 03:20 PM

There are some innocent ways a 'fake quote' can be generated...

-it may have been in a biography, as the biographers editorializing about J's beliefs, and was later misattributed as something the man himself said.

-It may be a quote from a contemporary, which sounded so much like J that it was misattributed

-A quote from someone completely unrelated

-Or the shameful alternatives
i) it was made up by a lazy or deceitful scholar and we've been quoting it ever since.

ii) an immature debator was being bombarded by the usual "Chrisitian founded this country, Freedom of, not from, religion," etc nonsense, remembered that Jefferson said a lot of stuff like this, and made up a plausible source 'on his feet'.

LOL, look at it this way, Christians would never be having this discussion...

03-31-2002, 12:34 PM	#1
Buckster Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 40	Jefferson 3-headed monster question I've many times seen the quote attributed to Jefferson: "The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful, and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." When referenced, it is attributed to be in a letter to his nephew, Peter Carr. However, having gone through the 3 letters I can find from Jefferson to Carr, none contain this quote. Does anyone know where this quote originates? Better still, does anyone have a link to the full text of the letter, date, circumstances or any of that?: Thanks in advance for any help.

04-09-2002, 04:13 PM	#4
JohnR Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Eastern PNW Posts: 572	I have never heard that one. Here is a interesting one. I can never join Calvin in addressing his god. He was indeed an Atheist, which I can never be; or rather his religion was Daemonism. If ever man worshipped a false god, he did. -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 I found that here<a href="http://www.nobelbeliefs.com/jefferson.htm" target="_blank">Jefferson Quotes</a> <a href="http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/4619/religion/quotes.html" target="_blank">These are interesting also.</a> I could not find the three headed quote though. [ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: JohnR ]</p>

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04-03-2002, 08:59 AM	#2
AspenMama Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 3,311	As this hasn't had any responses, I will try moving it to another forum.

04-09-2002, 03:42 PM	#3
Buckster Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 40	Well, that's a bummer. I guess if the answer isn't here, then the answer is probably that it's a fictional quote. It's gonna be a lot of work getting the word out to all those web sites. I'd like to try to keep our integrity higher than the crap we see from the other side of the fence... shoot.

04-09-2002, 06:48 PM	#5
Bokonon Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Left of the Mississippi Posts: 138	<a href="http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jeflxx.htm" target="_blank">http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jeflxx.htm</a> A rather extensive site containing Jefferson letters, including 3 to Peter Carr (probably the 3 you found). The quote appears to be fake.

04-09-2002, 07:30 PM	#6
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Why would anyone want to fake a quote? I know this sounds naieve but it just doesn't make sense to me, no matter what side it's coming from. What's the point? Yes, it does sound naieve. I wouldn't be able to look at myself in the mirror if i did something like that. Oh well.

04-10-2002, 03:20 PM	#9
Seeker196 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 278	There are some innocent ways a 'fake quote' can be generated... -it may have been in a biography, as the biographers editorializing about J's beliefs, and was later misattributed as something the man himself said. -It may be a quote from a contemporary, which sounded so much like J that it was misattributed -A quote from someone completely unrelated -Or the shameful alternatives i) it was made up by a lazy or deceitful scholar and we've been quoting it ever since. ii) an immature debator was being bombarded by the usual "Chrisitian founded this country, Freedom of, not from, religion," etc nonsense, remembered that Jefferson said a lot of stuff like this, and made up a plausible source 'on his feet'. LOL, look at it this way, Christians would never be having this discussion...

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