Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Veil of Fire · 10-06-2002, 07:56 PM

Someone once told me about a sect of people who believe Lucifer was originally the GOOD guy in the whole heavenly struggle, and Yaweh was the evil one, but he had a bunch of people write books for him and made himself seem good. They supposedly worship Lucifer as the angel of light and goodness in an underground sorta way.

Problem is, I can't find anything like that on the web, and it's frustrating me and making me loose credibility with my roommate, who insists that no such group could exist. Does anyone know anything about this?

Bible Humper · 10-06-2002, 08:31 PM

Actually I remember hearing all about this a few years ago during an interview with Ann Rice. I can't remember if she actually follows this sect or if it was just something she planned to write about, but hopefully that will set you on the right track.

I do remember clearly the main gist of what you heard, Lucifer rebelled because of Yahweh's evil but lost.

trientalis · 10-06-2002, 09:32 PM

The concept of Lucifer being good instead of evil turns up in _Memnoch the Devil_ by Anne Rice. However, I don't recall if Lucifer was being worshipped by anyone in the novel.

RufusAtticus · 10-07-2002, 06:13 AM

There are some places in the middle east where Lucifer is celebrated for creating mankind. (We wouldn't exist if he didn't trick Adam & Eve.)

I think I saw a news report on them in the mid '90s.

Jamie_L · 10-07-2002, 08:54 AM

I used to like the notion that Lucifer was a guy doing a job, just like any other angel. His job is to tempt people so God can identify and weed out the bad apples and promote only the good ones to heaven.

Of course, that's just a little something I made up to write a story about. But I always liked it.

Jamie

Harumi · 10-07-2002, 11:27 AM

A classmate of mine studied vigourously on the canons that weren't put in the Bible. It in fact states that God may have in fact made a mistake in sending Lucifer to hell.

Angels, by canon definiton, serve God. They have no free will of their own. When God created humans, he ordered Lucifer to listen to humans, who refused because as an angel, he can't. God mistakened this for rebellion and sent him to hell for it.

So much for omnipotence.

And as for the canon, I have no idea what it is, but I could ask my friends where he got the info.

Dephanie

Walross · 10-07-2002, 01:11 PM

I always liked the idea of Lucifer as the heroic leader in a rebellion against an unjust and tyrannical god. Even in the bible, he always seemed to be kind of a Prometheus figure. Instead of stealing fire from the gods for mankind, he encourages mankind to steal the "fire" of knowledge from god. Good or bad, he's the best character in that book.

Walross

Corwin · 10-07-2002, 01:34 PM

...he's also the one non-human character in Genesis, (if you accept that the serpent in Genesis is Lucifer, which is never specifically stated) who tells Adam and Eve the complete truth.

galiel · 10-07-2002, 01:40 PM

Gnostics believe that Yahweh was a nasty, insufferable little fella whose flawed creations of the universe and life are responsible for all the misery and venality they perceive is what current life is all about.

Critics within the Christian Church have tarred them over the years with an incorrect claim that they also worship Satan as the good guy. This made it easier to perform the genocidal pogroms of early Christianity which halted rapidly spreading Gnosticism and virtually eliminated it in the first century C.E.

That is the closest I can come to a sect of the type you describe. Although Gnosticims somewhat predates Christianity, it adopted Christian theology quickly and became sort of the "black-sheep" distaff Christian sect.

daemon · 10-07-2002, 02:03 PM

I think it's probably Gnostic Christianity you're talking about here. Gnosticism generally teaches that the creator entity, the Demiurge, identified itself as Yahweh, while Christ is decended from the true God. Whether that true God is Satan is questionable.

There is another group of people (decended via Islam) that believes Satan controls the world, having been given control by God for whatever reason. It's an odd group, as they pray to Satan to release them from his grip, because they believe that God cannot hear them. They don't believe Satan is good, though.

10-06-2002, 07:56 PM	#1
Veil of Fire Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: South Carolina Posts: 451	Dumb Question: "Lucifer as the Good Guy" sect? Someone once told me about a sect of people who believe Lucifer was originally the GOOD guy in the whole heavenly struggle, and Yaweh was the evil one, but he had a bunch of people write books for him and made himself seem good. They supposedly worship Lucifer as the angel of light and goodness in an underground sorta way. Problem is, I can't find anything like that on the web, and it's frustrating me and making me loose credibility with my roommate, who insists that no such group could exist. Does anyone know anything about this?

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10-06-2002, 08:31 PM	#2
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Actually I remember hearing all about this a few years ago during an interview with Ann Rice. I can't remember if she actually follows this sect or if it was just something she planned to write about, but hopefully that will set you on the right track. I do remember clearly the main gist of what you heard, Lucifer rebelled because of Yahweh's evil but lost.

10-06-2002, 09:32 PM	#3
trientalis Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Washington state Posts: 848	The concept of Lucifer being good instead of evil turns up in _Memnoch the Devil_ by Anne Rice. However, I don't recall if Lucifer was being worshipped by anyone in the novel.

10-07-2002, 06:13 AM	#4
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	There are some places in the middle east where Lucifer is celebrated for creating mankind. (We wouldn't exist if he didn't trick Adam & Eve.) I think I saw a news report on them in the mid '90s.

10-07-2002, 08:54 AM	#5
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	I used to like the notion that Lucifer was a guy doing a job, just like any other angel. His job is to tempt people so God can identify and weed out the bad apples and promote only the good ones to heaven. Of course, that's just a little something I made up to write a story about. But I always liked it. Jamie

10-07-2002, 11:27 AM	#6
Harumi Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: N/A Posts: 3,184	A classmate of mine studied vigourously on the canons that weren't put in the Bible. It in fact states that God may have in fact made a mistake in sending Lucifer to hell. Angels, by canon definiton, serve God. They have no free will of their own. When God created humans, he ordered Lucifer to listen to humans, who refused because as an angel, he can't. God mistakened this for rebellion and sent him to hell for it. So much for omnipotence. And as for the canon, I have no idea what it is, but I could ask my friends where he got the info. Dephanie

10-07-2002, 01:11 PM	#7
Walross Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada Posts: 1,569	I always liked the idea of Lucifer as the heroic leader in a rebellion against an unjust and tyrannical god. Even in the bible, he always seemed to be kind of a Prometheus figure. Instead of stealing fire from the gods for mankind, he encourages mankind to steal the "fire" of knowledge from god. Good or bad, he's the best character in that book. Walross

10-07-2002, 01:34 PM	#8
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	...he's also the one non-human character in Genesis, (if you accept that the serpent in Genesis is Lucifer, which is never specifically stated) who tells Adam and Eve the complete truth.

10-07-2002, 01:40 PM	#9
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	Gnostics believe that Yahweh was a nasty, insufferable little fella whose flawed creations of the universe and life are responsible for all the misery and venality they perceive is what current life is all about. Critics within the Christian Church have tarred them over the years with an incorrect claim that they also worship Satan as the good guy. This made it easier to perform the genocidal pogroms of early Christianity which halted rapidly spreading Gnosticism and virtually eliminated it in the first century C.E. That is the closest I can come to a sect of the type you describe. Although Gnosticims somewhat predates Christianity, it adopted Christian theology quickly and became sort of the "black-sheep" distaff Christian sect.

10-07-2002, 02:03 PM	#10
daemon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 737	I think it's probably Gnostic Christianity you're talking about here. Gnosticism generally teaches that the creator entity, the Demiurge, identified itself as Yahweh, while Christ is decended from the true God. Whether that true God is Satan is questionable. There is another group of people (decended via Islam) that believes Satan controls the world, having been given control by God for whatever reason. It's an odd group, as they pray to Satan to release them from his grip, because they believe that God cannot hear them. They don't believe Satan is good, though.

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