Freethought & Rationalism Archive

livius drusus · 06-20-2003, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
I don't know how they do it in Germany but in the USA and Ireland the RCC does not work its accounting as a normal corporation would. "While there are many pockets there is only one pair of pants." Money that you contribute for a specific purpose will go into a general fund.
It's sort of like attaching a note to your tax form, "Please use this cash for the Peace Corps and Space Exploration but don't buy any H bombs with it--Your pal, Biff." My heart might be in the right place but the money I've sent goes into a general fund to be allocated where the Government decides and not where I've directed.

Gurdur mentioned that Germany regulates the finances of historical monuments, religious or otherwise, and I know Italy does the same. I've done a quick search and found nothing concrete in terms of who pays for what how, but it's an interesting question and I intend to pursue it.

Biff the unclean · 06-20-2003, 11:22 AM

Gurdur mentioned that Germany regulates the finances of historical monuments, religious or otherwise, and I know Italy does the same.
I've had German ex-pats who are now Americans tell me that they were taxed a church tax in Germany. And they mentioned German Atheists who were imprisoned for refusing to pay it.
But I never followed up on this story so I don't know how accurate it is (which you'll notice doesn't stop me from repeating it)
I've done a quick search and found nothing concrete in terms of who pays for what how, but it's an interesting question and I intend to pursue it.
Talk to any contractor who has done work for the RCC and you will find that even the most straight forward of financial dealings becomes immediately labyrinthical. If you do an in depth search you still won't find who pays for what
:banghead:

Gurdur · 06-20-2003, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
...........
I've had German ex-pats who are now Americans tell me that they were taxed a church tax in Germany.

Church tax is purely voluntary.

If you want to be a member of a church (Prodo or Mick), you have to say so.
If you want to leave, you can do so at any time.

Ditto with the relevant church tax.

Quote:

And they mentioned German Atheists who were imprisoned for refusing to pay it.

Either urban legend or something way way back in the past.

The tax is purely voluntary. 'Course, if you ever want to actually use your local church for things like baptisms, church wedding or so on, then the relevant priest/pastor might reject your request if you are not a member of that local church community as defined by paying the tax.

Quote:

But I never followed up on this story so I don't know how accurate it is (which you'll notice doesn't stop me from repeating it)

You'll now know it's wrong.

Quote:

Talk to any contractor who has done work for the RCC and you will find that even the most straight forward of financial dealings becomes immediately labyrinthical. If you do an in depth search you still won't find who pays for what

And I repeat:
finances here in Germany are subject to strict regulation.
Why, even the Scientology people are not recognised as a religion, and get regularly checked up upon.

Had a donation being made to the correct box/fund for upkeep of the K�lner Dom, then that's exactly where the money would go.

And that's the only relevant, on-topic bit.

Biff the unclean · 06-20-2003, 02:27 PM

Either urban legend or something way way back in the past.

The tax is purely voluntary
The story was told to me in the late 1980's by one of the senior Vice Presidents of Bertelsmann (and now one of the Presidents). One of the reasons he said that he was thrilled to be in the United States (He has since become an American Citizen) was that he was required to continue to pay this church tax even though he had become an Atheist. I'm glad to hear that that has changed.

Gurdur · 06-20-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
....
The story was told to me in the late 1980's

Even back in the 1980's it was purely voluntary.
Either your informant did not go through the very simple step of going to the town hall to complete a declaration of leaving his church, or he was referring to something far earlier.

Quote:

One of the reasons he said that he was thrilled to be in the United States (He has since become an American Citizen)

No offence, but I myself am glad not to be an American citizen.
For all your church/state seperation, the USA is where rabid fundy Christian pushes are coming from.
I've noticed that the people who complain most about the actual effect of religion upon them are usually Americans or from Moslem countries.

BTW, for your information:
I am an Australian, however I live in Germany. As a permanent resident, albeit voteless, I pay full taxes (though not the church tax, since I am not a member of any church, being the atheist that I am).

Just to provoke some thought:
I once had a series of arguments with a Protestant pastor here in Germany about the intertwining of state and religion.
The Prodo minister told me that in her opinion (yes, a she) it was a great idea, since pastors are them much freer to say what they want, rather than what the congregation wants to hear.
In practice, this means that the Prodo clergy at least are far more liberal and Deist than their congregations are (she herself did not believe in Hell, the Devil and sundry other things).
She felt far freer to express her opinions in her sermons in Germany than she did while doing a locum in the USA at a northern Baptist church.

So put me in the category of being glad to live in Germany.

Biff the unclean · 06-20-2003, 03:50 PM

Either your informant did not go through the very simple step of going to the town hall to complete a declaration of leaving his church�
Now there's something that almost every American, theist or not, would find highly offensive

No offence, but I myself am glad not to be an American citizen.
Well I had to work very hard to become an American citizen and am quite proud to be allowed to be one.

She felt far freer to express her opinions in her sermons in Germany than she did while doing a locum in the USA at a northern Baptist church.
You don't think that that could have anything to do with the fact that her beliefs are in direct opposition to those held by the Baptists do you rather than location do you? Perhaps the congregations in Germany are fonder of heresy.

So put me in the category of being glad to live in Germany.
I'm glad you live in Germany and not the USA too

Gurdur · 06-20-2003, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur

Either your informant did not go through the very simple step of going to the town hall to complete a declaration of leaving his church�

Originally posted by Biff the unclean

Now there's something that almost every American, theist or not, would find highly offensive

Gosh. Dear me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean

Well I had to work very hard to become an American citizen and am quite proud to be allowed to be one.

*shrug*
That's your right to feel that way.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur

She felt far freer to express her opinions in her sermons in Germany than she did while doing a locum in the USA at a northern Baptist church.

Originally posted by Biff the unclean

You don't think that that could have anything to do with the fact that her beliefs are in direct opposition to those held by the Baptists do you rather than location do you? Perhaps the congregations in Germany are fonder of heresy.

Missed my point fully, didn't you ?
Her opinions were as different from the German congregation's as from the American congregation's --- but in Germany, her salary and position did not depend upon the congregation (unlike in the USA), and therefore she had far more chance to speak her mind.
Here in Germany we have more freedom from and in religion than you Americans ---- or so it would appear from all the American complaints.

Quote:

Originally posted by Gurdur

So put me in the category of being glad to live in Germany.

Originally posted by Biff the unclean

I'm glad you live in Germany and not the USA too

Feel the love !

But do you actually have a point ? Any point ?

Biff the unclean · 06-20-2003, 04:37 PM

Missed my point fully, didn't you ?
You had a point?

Her opinions were as different from the German congregation's as from the American congregation's --- but in Germany, her salary and position did not depend upon the congregation (unlike in the USA), and therefore she had far more chance to speak her mind.
Right because the money and position came from the government and she could therefore preach whatever her employers condoned. Apparently even if it was in opposition to the religious beliefs of the congregation.
In the United States such shenanigans are prohibited by our Constitution.

Here in Germany we have more freedom from religion than you Americans ---- or so it would appear from all the American complaints.
Right, just church taxes and registering your religion with the authorities and having the government condone the altering of people's basic religious teachings
But do you actually have a point ? Any point ?
My point is that, to me, that situation sounds intolerable. But if for some reason you think that makes it superior to conditions in the US, then Germany is the place for you.

Gurdur · 06-20-2003, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean

You had a point?

Resorting to ad hominems so quickly ?
No rational counter-argument at all ?
Dear me.

Quote:

Right because the money and position came from the government and she could therefore preach whatever her employers condoned. Apparently even if it was in opposition to the religious beliefs of the congregation.
In the United States such shenanigans are prohibited by our Constitution.

ROFL ! ROFL ! ROFL !
Since the government allows complete freedom of conscience, she was able to preach according to her conscience.

According to you, such shenanigans such as practical public freedom of conscience are verboten --- forbidden --- by your precious Constitution.
My word, you're struggling, aren't you ?

Quote:

My point is that, to me, that situation sounds intolerable. But if for some reason you think that makes it superior to conditions in the US, then Germany is the place for you.

ROFL ! ROFL ! ROFL ! I am laughing my guts out !

Let's sum up the discussion:

I point out how someone can have greater freedom of conscience in public speech in certain situations in Germany than in the USA.

You object, finding that intolerable.

I point out that this greater freedom means more freedom in and from religion in practice in Germany than in the USA.

You object, finding that intolerable.

Something tells me you're biased.

Biff the unclean · 06-20-2003, 06:50 PM

Resorting to ad hominems so quickly ?
That's not what an ad hominem is, and you know it

No rational counter-argument at all ?
Dear me.
Because I missed the rational arguement

Since the government allows complete freedom of conscience, she was able to preach according to her conscience.
Is there a government that supplies funds and allows complete freedom of conscience? I think you are being na�ve.
But you are talking about a minister who is to all intents and purposes an employee of the state who is preaching to her congregation, all of whom are registered with the state and paying the state taxes to pay her salary, doctrines which are completely opposed to their religious beliefs.

According to you, such shenanigans such as practical public freedom of conscience are verboten --- forbidden --- by your precious Constitution.
My word, you're struggling, aren't you ?
What is forbidden by my extremely precious Constitution is the government tampering with peoples religions.

I point out how someone can have greater freedom of conscience in public speech in certain situations in Germany than in the USA.
You point out that people of a given religion, in this case Baptists, are forced by law to pay the government to practice their religion. The government in turn supplies a minister who has so little conscience and such little regard for this congregation that she preaches concepts that are diametrically opposed to those held by Baptists.

You object, finding that intolerable.
Yes, I think that such state-sponsored cohesion is horrible.

I point out that this greater freedom means more freedom in and from religion in practice in Germany than in the USA.
How is this freedom for the congregation?

You object, finding that intolerable.

Something tells me you're biased.
Apparently I am. I'm biased against governments forcing religious beliefs on their citizens.
Here in the States we have taken prayer out of schools. And I'm sure you have heard about the hubbub over "Under God" in our pledge of allegiance being declared unconstitutional.
You are talking about German citizens attempting to practice their own religion and the government forcing a completely different religion on them. And you call this "freedom of conscience in public speech"!??!
You are quite right, you wouldn't like it here.

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06-20-2003, 11:22 AM	#42
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Gurdur mentioned that Germany regulates the finances of historical monuments, religious or otherwise, and I know Italy does the same. I've had German ex-pats who are now Americans tell me that they were taxed a church tax in Germany. And they mentioned German Atheists who were imprisoned for refusing to pay it. But I never followed up on this story so I don't know how accurate it is (which you'll notice doesn't stop me from repeating it) I've done a quick search and found nothing concrete in terms of who pays for what how, but it's an interesting question and I intend to pursue it. Talk to any contractor who has done work for the RCC and you will find that even the most straight forward of financial dealings becomes immediately labyrinthical. If you do an in depth search you still won't find who pays for what :banghead:

06-20-2003, 02:27 PM	#44
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Either urban legend or something way way back in the past. The tax is purely voluntary The story was told to me in the late 1980's by one of the senior Vice Presidents of Bertelsmann (and now one of the Presidents). One of the reasons he said that he was thrilled to be in the United States (He has since become an American Citizen) was that he was required to continue to pay this church tax even though he had become an Atheist. I'm glad to hear that that has changed.

06-20-2003, 03:50 PM	#46
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Either your informant did not go through the very simple step of going to the town hall to complete a declaration of leaving his church� Now there's something that almost every American, theist or not, would find highly offensive No offence, but I myself am glad not to be an American citizen. Well I had to work very hard to become an American citizen and am quite proud to be allowed to be one. She felt far freer to express her opinions in her sermons in Germany than she did while doing a locum in the USA at a northern Baptist church. You don't think that that could have anything to do with the fact that her beliefs are in direct opposition to those held by the Baptists do you rather than location do you? Perhaps the congregations in Germany are fonder of heresy. So put me in the category of being glad to live in Germany. I'm glad you live in Germany and not the USA too

06-20-2003, 04:37 PM	#48
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Missed my point fully, didn't you ? You had a point? Her opinions were as different from the German congregation's as from the American congregation's --- but in Germany, her salary and position did not depend upon the congregation (unlike in the USA), and therefore she had far more chance to speak her mind. Right because the money and position came from the government and she could therefore preach whatever her employers condoned. Apparently even if it was in opposition to the religious beliefs of the congregation. In the United States such shenanigans are prohibited by our Constitution. Here in Germany we have more freedom from religion than you Americans ---- or so it would appear from all the American complaints. Right, just church taxes and registering your religion with the authorities and having the government condone the altering of people's basic religious teachings But do you actually have a point ? Any point ? My point is that, to me, that situation sounds intolerable. But if for some reason you think that makes it superior to conditions in the US, then Germany is the place for you.

06-20-2003, 06:50 PM	#50
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Resorting to ad hominems so quickly ? That's not what an ad hominem is, and you know it No rational counter-argument at all ? Dear me. Because I missed the rational arguement Since the government allows complete freedom of conscience, she was able to preach according to her conscience. Is there a government that supplies funds and allows complete freedom of conscience? I think you are being na�ve. But you are talking about a minister who is to all intents and purposes an employee of the state who is preaching to her congregation, all of whom are registered with the state and paying the state taxes to pay her salary, doctrines which are completely opposed to their religious beliefs. According to you, such shenanigans such as practical public freedom of conscience are verboten --- forbidden --- by your precious Constitution. My word, you're struggling, aren't you ? What is forbidden by my extremely precious Constitution is the government tampering with peoples religions. I point out how someone can have greater freedom of conscience in public speech in certain situations in Germany than in the USA. You point out that people of a given religion, in this case Baptists, are forced by law to pay the government to practice their religion. The government in turn supplies a minister who has so little conscience and such little regard for this congregation that she preaches concepts that are diametrically opposed to those held by Baptists. You object, finding that intolerable. Yes, I think that such state-sponsored cohesion is horrible. I point out that this greater freedom means more freedom in and from religion in practice in Germany than in the USA. How is this freedom for the congregation? You object, finding that intolerable. Something tells me you're biased. Apparently I am. I'm biased against governments forcing religious beliefs on their citizens. Here in the States we have taken prayer out of schools. And I'm sure you have heard about the hubbub over "Under God" in our pledge of allegiance being declared unconstitutional. You are talking about German citizens attempting to practice their own religion and the government forcing a completely different religion on them. And you call this "freedom of conscience in public speech"!??! You are quite right, you wouldn't like it here.

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