Angrillori

Here's what gets me. He explicitly states you can, and some do fall away. Explicitly. He even uses those words.

Yet, here you admit that he doesn't explicitly say you can't fall away, you have to 'read into it a little' (paraphrase mine, tell me if I'm wrong)

Why does your 'reading into it' trump god's explicit word?

Explain that to me convincingly and we'll all have to start worshipping you!

(I'll ignore by the way what I think you were attempting as an attack on me--legalist? I prefer to see myself as someone who knows how to read the book you call holy with your lips but turn away from with your heart to follow those that itch your ears)

Magus55

Actually, Salvation is the clearest part of the Bible for the very reason of it being so important. God made the Bible though to require thought, intellect, study, and understanding so that we would have things to learn our whole lives. If it was short and simple, and required no thought whatsoever - it has little value to peoples lives, because they would read it and toss it on a shelf to collect dust.

Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The most important and famous quote in the Bible. Simple, clear, to the point.

Angrillori

Are you serious?



Read what you wrote! "if you do have such faith, you will never lose salvation."

Let's rephrase:

"if you do NOT have such faith you WILL lose salvation."

So. I'll lose salvation if I don't have such faith. I'm glad you could admit it Magus! Awfully big of you!

Quote:

1 Tim 4:16 - "Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because IF you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers." -- If you don't watch your life or you doctrine, then you won't save yourself or your hearers. Here, its discussing being a good example to believers and unbelievers alike. WATCH your life and doctrine, so that you are an example to the world of Jesus Christ and by producing good fruits and following Jesus' example, its a sign of your salvation and can bring others to Jesus as well. If your life isn't filled with Jesus and his teachings, then you aren't saved and you aren't witnessing to anyone to come to Jesus.

But who was Paul talking to? Someone that he thought was or wasn't saved? If he thought Tim was saved, then why a warning to avoid losing his salvation?
I'll also pointedly note your silence regarding ALL the other verses.

Pointedly.

Radorth

To "fall" hardly means the loss of salvation. Obviously the one who had to be "turned over to Satan" had fallen, but he was still saved.

Yes they would have been better of, because judgement for the Christian is more severe than fo an ignorant person. The very fact he uses the word "better" proves that the person who falls away is not lost. This verse is provides an excelent proof that not all unbelievers are lost. Otherwise how could they be better off?

Well again, their flesh was destroyed because of their disobedience. Nothing about being eternally lost.

He's worried about Timothy wandering off course and ending up in eternal torment? I don't think so. To be "saved" does not merely mean being saved from hell. It means "to be made whole" as well and that is the meaning here.

Yet another verse proving purgatory, as do some of the above. Sorry Magus.

The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and the end of it as well.

I'm trying.

That one's a toughy, but only if you read it as other than a positive affirmation. That's how I read it, based on other writings of John and because he uses the phrase "I will never" instead of "I will not." The verse does imply that it is possible. to lose one's salvation but it is the only one I know of, and you must read it as other than a positive affirmation.

Yeah, it's better to be hot or cold than lukewarm, otherwise Jesus will spit you out and let you go feed swine for awhile. Of course you're welcome back anytime, like all prodigal sons.

Rad

Magus55

No, actually i meant If you have faith in Jesus Christ, your salvation is sealed and can't be lost, even if you denounce your faith later on. Guess i should have been more clearer consider on this board everyone analyzes every single statement with a microscope. This better, If you have faith in Jesus Christ and ask him to be your Lord and Saviour, backsliding on your faith later on can't remove your salvation because its been sealed.

Carrie

Yeah right. Twist away Magus! Twist those scriptures to say what you want them to mean. Twist ‘em, twist ‘em, twist ‘em. Twist, twist, twist! A little more now!

2 Peter 1:10 - They STILL have to make their calling and election sure. And then you say they have to DO the things of faith, in order to be saved.

1 Tim 4:16 - Did you not read the part about “saving yourself?” It says, “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both YOURSELF, and your hearers.” This was not just a good way to be for believers and
unbelievers to see. You had to be this way to save YOURSELF too. So watching your life, means that you look at how you are living, and you look at your doctrine (the Bible) and then you match your life to your doctrine (the Bible), and make sure that you are obeying the teachings of the Bible. So you have to have a life that pretty closely follows the Bible’s teachings in order to be saved.

Then you said: “If your life isn't filled with Jesus and his teachings, then you aren't saved and you aren't witnessing to anyone to come to Jesus.”

So if you’re a Christian, but your life is not filled with Jesus and his teachings, then you’re not saved? That’s what you just said. I know lots of “Christians” who claim to be saved, yet I would not say that their lives are filled with Jesus and his teachings. They
really don’t follow Jesus’ teachings closely. So are they unsaved? If not, I’ll give you their e-mail addresses, and you can e-mail them and try to save ‘em. Maybe you’ll have more luck saving people who at least believe in Jesus. Like I said, you’re wasting your witnessing time here.

Magus55

I only stay here because i enjoy debating and to defend Christianity and the Bible. I long since gave up on trying to bring you to Jesus. Only God will be able to change people with such hardened hearts, and He may just let you have your way since you have no desire whatsoever to believe in the truth.

Radorth

All of them Carrie. You're doubtless just too lazy to reconcile them, when in fact they compliment and explain one another to those who actually study it carefully, as I just showed. True, some OSAS folks are too dogmatic but it is those don't read their inane and legalistic notions into it that finally get it.

Rad

Angrillori

Ahhh...the endless re-wordings and justifications and interpretations to make yourself feel good are ill-becoming of a christian. Carrying a cross is not easy.


Lets cut to the skinny. God's bible said (Heb 6:4-11) It is impossible for those who (know Jesus)...if they FALL AWAY, to be brought back to repentance...land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned....we want each of you to show this same diligence (loving god and ministering for him) to the very end, in order to make your hope sure.


God says, in no uncertain terms, explicitly, that once saved, you can still not achieve your hope and end up burning in hell.

So how do your verbal wranglings trump god's explicit word?
You'll notice I don't need explanations, or parallelisms or extra-biblical constructs, just the words as they are written.

As I said, if you show me why your interpretation and justification are more holy than the explicit word of god, I will worship you since you are clearly the greater being.

Carrie

Radorth,

I may deal with your stuff later, but right now it's late, and hardly worth it. For one, the person would be "better off" because at judgement, he's going to get a worse damnation, since he knew the truth, as opposed to someone who never knew it (like someone who died without having ever heard the gospel). And much of what you say seems to be twisting scripture, like Magus.
Of course the Revelation scripture about Sardis is difficult. But all the scriptures I pointed out say stuff along the same lines. And that is, you can lose your salvation. It's just that with the other scriptures, you found them easier to twist. You find it tough to twist the one about the church in Sardis, so you just figure that it must all fit in with what you want to believe somehow. Of course you want to believe in "once saved always saved," but keep in mind that many Christian churches that are mainstream do not believe this (like Methodists). And if you did not believe this, then it would suck for you, because you'd lose your precious sense of security, and you'd have to start thinking about how you are living your life. It's much easier to just believe that once you "pray Jesus in your heart" then that's it.