sophie

Witt : Veer right. So interpretations can only be performed by minds? Veer left.

So you mean deliberate choice is will, or is will different from deliberate choice. Because a tree makes a deliberate choice to seek sunlight, change colors and bleed when cut.

I don't think opinions count for anything except in a religious discussion.

Nowhere357

Is that your opinion?

But this isn't a religious discussion.

Also, I think trees and plants are problematic, and a side issue that confuses the subject. Going a little deeper into the mineral world may serve better. Does a cloud decide when to unleash a lightning bolt? Is a crystal aware of it's own growth?

I think the not. The only minds we recognize are the ones that arise from advanced central nervous systems. Trees do not have minds, as far as we can tell. Occam's razor.

phil

Some of the posts here sound like mysticism. You mean to tell me that if there is no one to observe something it doesn't exist?! Gravity seems to work just as well when I'm asleep as when I'm awake.

How about the law of gravitation as an absolute truth. Doesn't
F(g)= G m(1) * m(2) / d^2 always work. Mind you that this equation for gravity worked even before it was discovered.

Or how about the statement "Two airplanes flew into the twin towers on Sept. 11, 2001."

'Absolute' means: positive, unquestionable
'Truth' means: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality both definitions taken from Merriam Webster's Deluxe Dictionary

So 'absolute truth' would mean: the property of being in unquestionable accord with fact or reality.

Are not the above statements in unquestionable accord with fact or reality?

-phil

sophie

Nowhere357 : I greatly doubt it. Issue was it takes a mind to process and interpret reality. I am saying trees and plants process and interpret reality, not in the same way humans do but they still do. The implication therein lies that mind is an absolute truth.


I am sure there is some cause and effect which entails a decision. The set of events which tally to a cause which produces an effect. Perhaps you may better form the question by use of the word choice.

Yes but this evades the central point of absolute truth.

sophie

Nowhere357 : I follow this line of definition. Does language really require mind? or can cause and effect substitute nicely?

Witt then goes on to add : But if there is only a one to one correspondence then why the need to interpret which involves deliberate choice. According to Witt, there is really no choice. No choice hence no need to interpret by mind.

spacer1

Sophie,

It may be the case that plants and trees have a primitive version of a mind by virtue of being living beings. However, I think Witt's point still remains, since (AFAIK) trees do not assert propositions of absolute truth to which other trees may agree or disagree.

Nowhere357

My point is that trees no more make decisions than rocks and clouds do.

Exactly my point. Why are we talking about things with no minds, when it is minds which determine truth?

Language requires a mind to understand any meaning in the words. Parrots and tape recorders speak words due to cause and effect as you say, yet they have no understanding.

Without minds there is no understanding - hence no truth.

Nowhere357

This doesn't work, since the laws of physics break down near event horizons or the original singularity.

I don't know what to do with this one. Does this type of fact constitute an absolute truth?

The second one would seem to be. If it's not, someone with more knowledge of philosophy than I have will need to explain why not. It seems to me to be of the same type as for example "my name is Keith" which hardly seems like an absolute truth.

Chimp

How can we really be sure of anything? We can use inductive logic and make tentative conclusions from observing the world. We can also derive first principles and make deductions from those principles.

It seems that a first principle for the world, is that our observable world must be logically consistent. Certain rules must hold for certain conditions?

These rules must be "absolute", otherwise the world could not exist?

sophie

Nowhere357 : My friend, my friend, we are broaching the topic of absolute truth, not truth , not human truth which needs a mind to comprehend the Truth.

In your scheme of things absolute truth is only Truth with a capital T.


Let us try to think past truth, human truth. so we can try to glean the meaning of absolute truth.