Freethought & Rationalism Archive

adamcz · 03-05-2002, 02:51 PM

What's up guys. I'm writing a paper on the first 312 years of Christianity for my history class, and I'm trying to decide if there was a historical Jesus or not. It seems some writers say he never existed at all, and our current image of him is a composite of several Jewish teachers who lived around that time, while other writers not only claim he lived, but go on to name his siblings. Does anybody have any advice for me, as to how to sort through these opinions? Any good books that use real evidence? Thanks for your help! -Adam

Toto · 03-05-2002, 03:03 PM

From the Infidels Library, tends to lean towards Jesus existing:

<a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/jesus_search.html" target="_blank">The Search for the Historical Jesus</a>

From offsite, the best known case against the existence of a historical Jesus is:

<a href="http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus.html" target="_blank">The Jesus Puzzle</a>

We had a number of debates on the issue in the past year, but the steam has gone out of them. The most supportable stance is to be a Jesus agnostic - there may have been someone at the root of the mythological character of Jesus, but actually finding him is pretty hopeless.

Vorkosigan · 03-05-2002, 09:37 PM

That's my position too. However, workwise, you will be much better off if you simply say that he existed and then say that the gospels more or less reflect what actually happened. Pick one of the (many) "mainstream" intepretations, such as Jewish nationalist, Jewish eschatological preacher, wandering cynic, and go with that.

Why? Because you will have to deal with a LOT LESS history than if you take the natural starting point, which is that Jesus is about as historical as Robin Hood, King Arthur, or any other legendary figure. That will require delving into the sociopolitical reasons the Church invented and promulgated the Jesus Myth, quite a lot of detail of the evolution of the early church, etc. This will be fascinating, but will take a long time, and may result in a lot of work.

Also, your prof might take offense at the Jesus Myth, and punish you accordingly. You can't really go wrong with mainstream view, while challenging the status quo should really wait until you have tenure.

Michael

CX · 03-06-2002, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by adamcz:
<strong>What's up guys. I'm writing a paper on the first 312 years of Christianity for my history class, and I'm trying to decide if there was a historical Jesus or not. It seems some writers say he never existed at all, and our current image of him is a composite of several Jewish teachers who lived around that time, while other writers not only claim he lived, but go on to name his siblings. Does anybody have any advice for me, as to how to sort through these opinions? Any good books that use real evidence? Thanks for your help! -Adam</strong>

I would recommend "Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography" by John Dominic Crossan for the current mainstream view.

sidewinder · 03-06-2002, 08:55 AM

I would recommend John Meier's series "A Marginal Jew", although I have to admit that I haven't read the 3rd book yet. In any case, the first two books were excellent.

adamcz · 03-06-2002, 12:59 PM

Thanks for the help guys! I will see if the library has the books you mentioned next time I get down there (probably over the weekend). Although the books I have (even the anti-christian ones) are awful at citing their sources, it's seeming like the most logical stance I've read so far is that Jesus existed as a Jewish teacher, and Paul imagined the rest. I probably shouldn't dwell on this question too long, since it only really affects the first 30 years of Christian history, and I have 250 more to read about! I'm glad doing a google search for this paper led me to this site though... keep up the great work whoever's in charge here!

sidewinder · 03-07-2002, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by adamcz:
<strong>Although the books I have (even the anti-christian ones) are awful at citing their sources, it's seeming like the most logical stance I've read so far is that Jesus existed as a Jewish teacher, and Paul imagined the rest. </strong>

Meier's has citations for his sources out the you know what. The footnote sections alone are sometimes longer than the chapters.

03-05-2002, 02:51 PM	#1
adamcz New Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 3	Question on existance of historical Jesus What's up guys. I'm writing a paper on the first 312 years of Christianity for my history class, and I'm trying to decide if there was a historical Jesus or not. It seems some writers say he never existed at all, and our current image of him is a composite of several Jewish teachers who lived around that time, while other writers not only claim he lived, but go on to name his siblings. Does anybody have any advice for me, as to how to sort through these opinions? Any good books that use real evidence? Thanks for your help! -Adam

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03-05-2002, 03:03 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	From the Infidels Library, tends to lean towards Jesus existing: <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/james_still/jesus_search.html" target="_blank">The Search for the Historical Jesus</a> From offsite, the best known case against the existence of a historical Jesus is: <a href="http://www.magi.com/~oblio/jesus.html" target="_blank">The Jesus Puzzle</a> We had a number of debates on the issue in the past year, but the steam has gone out of them. The most supportable stance is to be a Jesus agnostic - there may have been someone at the root of the mythological character of Jesus, but actually finding him is pretty hopeless.

03-05-2002, 09:37 PM	#3
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	That's my position too. However, workwise, you will be much better off if you simply say that he existed and then say that the gospels more or less reflect what actually happened. Pick one of the (many) "mainstream" intepretations, such as Jewish nationalist, Jewish eschatological preacher, wandering cynic, and go with that. Why? Because you will have to deal with a LOT LESS history than if you take the natural starting point, which is that Jesus is about as historical as Robin Hood, King Arthur, or any other legendary figure. That will require delving into the sociopolitical reasons the Church invented and promulgated the Jesus Myth, quite a lot of detail of the evolution of the early church, etc. This will be fascinating, but will take a long time, and may result in a lot of work. Also, your prof might take offense at the Jesus Myth, and punish you accordingly. You can't really go wrong with mainstream view, while challenging the status quo should really wait until you have tenure. Michael

03-06-2002, 08:55 AM	#5
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	I would recommend John Meier's series "A Marginal Jew", although I have to admit that I haven't read the 3rd book yet. In any case, the first two books were excellent.

03-06-2002, 12:59 PM	#6
adamcz New Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 3	Thanks for the help guys! I will see if the library has the books you mentioned next time I get down there (probably over the weekend). Although the books I have (even the anti-christian ones) are awful at citing their sources, it's seeming like the most logical stance I've read so far is that Jesus existed as a Jewish teacher, and Paul imagined the rest. I probably shouldn't dwell on this question too long, since it only really affects the first 30 years of Christian history, and I have 250 more to read about! I'm glad doing a google search for this paper led me to this site though... keep up the great work whoever's in charge here!

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