Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emotional · 07-04-2003, 07:35 AM

I'm a regular visitor to Answers in Genesis (just to have a good laugh). They now have a new series called "Chapters from the Answers Book", and the first chapter is about atheism, and the inherent immorality therein.

Does God exist?

Enjoy. I especially loved this bit:

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Now atheists love to point to atrocities committed by supposed 'Christians' - the Crusades and Northern Ireland are favorites. If the people committing these terrible deeds were indeed Christians, they were/are being inconsistent with their own standard of morality (e.g., 'do not murder,' 'love your enemies'). However, Stalin, for example, was being consistent with his, because, being an atheist (after reading Darwin), he had no objective basis for any standard of morality. Keith (above) admitted that Hitler was also consistent with his evolutionary philosophy.

Jimmy Higgins · 07-04-2003, 08:29 AM

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Atheism, with its evolutionary rationale, says �love� is nothing more than self-interest in increasing the chances of our genes surviving in our offspring or our close relatives.

Oh, is that what that is? I guess my personal compassion has been misguided.

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However, not only is atheism destructive, it is logically flawed at its very roots because there must be a Creator, as we shall see.

Its logical flaw is that there must be a god. Funny how they don't say the word is which would denote truth and fact, but must which denotes authority and chance.

I'm just wondering if that counts as being published as a scientist for Socrates, doh, I mean Sarfati?

Daggah · 07-04-2003, 08:49 AM

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Keith (above) admitted that Hitler was also consistent with his evolutionary philosophy.

Which I'm sure he learned from his reading of Martin Luther's "On the Jews and their Lies." Right? Right? Hey AiG, you've gone a bit pale there...

NonHomogenized · 07-04-2003, 07:05 PM

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Underpinning this abandonment of faith in God is the widespread acceptance of evolutionary thinking�that everything made itself by natural processes; that God is not necessary. There is �design,� such people will admit, but no Designer is necessary. The designed thing designed itself!

Wow! There's a king kong of strawmen! I've never even heard of someone claiming design, but no designer. Wotta load o' crap!

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This thinking, where the plain-as-day evidence for God�s existence (Rom. 1:19�20) is explained away

Wait, where is this plain-as-day evidence, and why, exactly, isn't it plain as day? It's only the omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent creator of the damn universe, you know!

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, leads naturally to atheism (belief in no god) and secular humanism (man can chart his own course without God). Such thinking abounds in universities and governments today.

No, the lack of any evidence for, or even good reasoning in favor of, god's existence, is what leads naturally to atheism (lack of belief in god), and secular humanism (the philosophy that we should help out the rest of mankind, to try and make the world a better place. At least, that's what it boils down to IMHO. YMMV)

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Some of the greatest evil seen has been perpetrated by those who have adopted an evolutionary approach to morality�Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot. Atheistic evolutionist Sir Arthur Keith acknowledged of Hitler:

WTF?!? These jokers really need to lay off all that crack they've been smoking.

braces_for_impact · 07-04-2003, 07:24 PM

I said it once and I'll say it again. I LOVE how many current Christian denominations try to distance themselves from their own religion's roots, as if they are not directly evolved from them.

NonHomogenized · 07-04-2003, 07:53 PM

And then I had to go and read more, leading to another post here. I must be a masochist or something :banghead:

First of all, we start off with this gem of an image:

a complete piece of nonsensical drivel. I can't even refute it: there's nothing meaningful enough to refute.

Next, we have:

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Biblical evidence for the existence of a divine author

'cause you know, you should trust books that claim to be written by/inspired by invisible beings. Anyhoo...

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The Bible, as well as proclaiming the existence of God, also bears witness that God exists, because only divine inspiration can explain the existence of this most remarkable of books. The characteristics that point to divine authorship are:

Okay, this I gotta see. Incidentally, L. Ron Hubbard wrote just as good a story, and it made about as much sense. Plus it was more consistent. This tells you something about how little it takes to outwrite the bible. But, let's see what they have to say:

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The Bible�s amazing unity.

What? WHAT? What unity? It's got more contradictions than L.A. has unemployed actors! (well, that might be a small exaggeration, but it's a damn lot, anyhow)

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Despite being penned by more than 40 authors from over 19 different walks of life over some 1,600 years, the Bible is a consistent revelation from the beginning to the end.

Amazing how that works. Out of the dozens and dozens of authors who wrote religious texts for the jews and christians over those 1,600 years, they were able to find 40, most of whom were raised on the rest's teachings, which made some vague semblance of coherency. Gee, who woulda thunk it?

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Indeed the first and last books of the Bible, Genesis and Revelation, dovetail so perfectly�telling of �Paradise Lost� and �Paradise Regained� respectively�that they speak powerfully of their divine authorship (compare for example Gen. 1�3 and Rev. 21�22).

First of all, as a former christian, I have to say that the only way they'd possibly dovetail is to someone who was so far around the bend, they could almost see the starting point on the horizon ahead of them, or someone on powerful hallucinogens.

now, let's actually look at the cited verses. I'm afraid they're kinda long, but, in the interest of pointing and laughing at stupidity, I feel it's worth it.

Genesis chapter 1 through chapter 3:
1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.1:2 Now the earth was without shape and empty, and darkness was over the surface of the watery deep, but the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the water. 1:3 God said, "Let there be light." And there was light!

Revelations, chapters 21 and 22 made so little sense that I thought maybe they meant Revelations 1:21-22. But, lo and behold, Revelations 1 ends at verse 20. Hmmm... chapters 21 and 22 are too long, so I'll just put up the first part of chapter 21. If it "dovetails", we should see some indication of it here.

Revelations chapter 21, verses 1 - 8:
21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth had ceased to exist, and the sea existed no more. 21:2 And I saw the holy city-the new Jerusalem-descending out of heaven from God, made ready like a bride adorned for her husband. 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: "Look! The residence of God is among men and women. He will live among them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will not exist any more-or mourning, or crying, or pain; the former things have ceased to exist.

21:5 And the one seated on the throne said: "Look! I am making all things new!" Then he said to me, "Write it down, because these words are reliable and true." 21:6 He also said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the one who is thirsty I will give water free of charge from the spring of the water of life. 21:7 The one who conquers will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 21:8 But to the cowards, unbelievers, detestable persons, murderers, the sexually immoral, and those who practice magic spells, idol worshipers, and all those who lie, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. That is the second death.

The rest of chapter 21 talks about new jerusalem, which is a magical city where god lives with his people, and they don't need a temple or anything. Really, it sounds pretty lame.

Chapter 22 is the author going "it's really true! Really, really true! I swear it is! And if you fuck with what I've written here, god shall smiteth thine ass!"

dovetails, my ass! but, moving on...

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The Bible�s amazing preservation. In spite of political and religious persecution, the Bible remains. The Roman Emperor Diocletian, following an edict in A.D. 303, thought he had destroyed every hated Bible.

If he really succeeded, I guess we can really rule out the bible's legitimacy even moreso than we already could. ^_^

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He erected a column over the ashes of a burnt Bible to celebrate his victory. Twenty-five years later, the new emperor, Constantine, commissioned the production of 50 Bibles at the expense of the government! In the eighteenth century, the noted French infidel, Voltaire, forecast that within a century there would be no Bibles left on the earth. Ironically, 50 years after he died, the Geneva Bible Society used his old printing press and his house to produce stacks of Bibles. The Bible is today available in far more languages than any other book.

And this is supposed to demonstrate what, exactly? I'm sorry, it doesn't seem to really have much of a point.

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The Bible�s historical accuracy. Nelson Glueck, famous Jewish archaeologist, spoke of what he called �the almost incredibly accurate historical memory of the Bible, and particularly so when it is fortified by archaeological fact.�4 William F. Albright, widely recognized as one of the great archaeologists, stated:

So, where's that flood geology, for starters?

I could go on and on, but I'm off work in 10 minutes, and I need to close out my shift. Plus, this is going on way too long....

GunnerJ · 07-04-2003, 08:37 PM

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Indeed the first and last books of the Bible, Genesis and Revelation, dovetail so perfectly�telling of �Paradise Lost� and �Paradise Regained� respectively�that they speak powerfully of their divine authorship (compare for example Gen. 1�3 and Rev. 21�22).

All this shows is that the dude who wrote Revalations also read Genesis: no more need be posited to explain this "remarkable" convergence of themes.

dirkduck · 07-04-2003, 09:50 PM

Just searchiong around the site I spotted this gem:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3470.asp

"Hints for parents about your children and evolution". What great hints!:

"Firstly, you can teach your children about God's creation. Begin when they are very young. Read to them over and over again the story of God's creation until they have it firmly fixed in their memory"

Philosoft · 07-04-2003, 09:51 PM

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However, Stalin, for example, was being consistent with his, because, being an atheist (after reading Darwin), he had no objective basis for any standard of morality.

Theists. Don't. Either.

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Keith (above) admitted that Hitler was also consistent with his evolutionary philosophy.

What the hell is "evolutionary philosophy"?

Jayjay · 07-04-2003, 11:05 PM

I can't help groaning everytime I hear that idiotic "atheists have no objective basis for morality" line coming from folks who think "the bible says so" qualifies as an objective standard...

:boohoo:

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07-04-2003, 07:24 PM	#5
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	I said it once and I'll say it again. I LOVE how many current Christian denominations try to distance themselves from their own religion's roots, as if they are not directly evolved from them.

07-04-2003, 09:50 PM	#8
dirkduck Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,038	Just searchiong around the site I spotted this gem: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3470.asp "Hints for parents about your children and evolution". What great hints!: "Firstly, you can teach your children about God's creation. Begin when they are very young. Read to them over and over again the story of God's creation until they have it firmly fixed in their memory"

07-04-2003, 11:05 PM	#10
Jayjay Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 6,261	I can't help groaning everytime I hear that idiotic "atheists have no objective basis for morality" line coming from folks who think "the bible says so" qualifies as an objective standard... :boohoo:

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