Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SLD · 05-20-2003, 08:47 PM

Did Mark use the story of Vespasian using spit to cure a blind man in Alexandria as well as a lame man as a source for his story about Jesus curing the blind man with his spit in Mark, Chapter 8? The story is also told in John Chapter 9.

I've heard some claim to this effect but we interested in hearing the real arguments.

SLD

Toto · 05-21-2003, 01:26 AM

It's more likely that both have a common source in the beliefs of the time.

John P. Meier's discussion of the parallels with Vespasian's healing is reproduced here.

Richard Carrier states:

Quote:

Miraculous healings were also commonplace. Suetonius, another biographer writing only a generation after Plutarch, reports that even the emperor Vespasian once cured the blind and lame (Life of Vespasian, 7.1 3; this "power" being attributed to the god Serapis--incidentally the Egyptian counterpart to Asclepius; cf. also Tacitus, Histories, 4.81). Likewise, statues with healing powers were common attractions for sick people of this era. . . .

But above all the "pagans" had Asclepius, their own healing savior, centuries before, and after, the ministry of Christ. Surviving testimonies to his influence and healing power throughout the classical age are common enough to fill a two-volume book (Edelstein and Edelstein, Asclepius: A Collection and Interpretation of the Testimonies, in two volumes, Ayer Company Publishers (Salem, NH), 1945. Reprinted in 1975 and 1988. Entries #423-450 contain the most vivid testimonials). Of greatest interest are the inscriptions set up for those healed at his temples. These give us almost first hand testimony, more reliable evidence than anything we have for the miracles of Jesus, of the blind, the lame, the mute, even the victims of kidney stones, paralytics, and one fellow with a spearhead stuck in his jaw (see the work cited above, p. 232.), all being cured by this pagan "savior." And this testimony goes on for centuries. Inscriptions span from the 4th century B.C. to the 3rd century A.D. and later, all over the Roman Empire. Clearly, the people of this time were quite ready to believe such tales. They were not remarkable at all.

SLD · 05-21-2003, 07:42 PM

I guess what strikes me as odd, is that the stories come out around the same time, Vespasian left Judea in 69 AD to return to Rome and the incident happened on the way in Egypt. The story was apparently widespread and was used partly to legitimize Vespasian as Emperor (although victory in battle also didn't hurt his chances) - in the same way that the story is used in John and Mark to legitimize Jesus as the savior. However whether Mark took the rumor from Vespasian's rumors, and put it in his book, or whether he just made it up from whole cloth or from some other source is I guess still an open question.

SLD

lpetrich · 05-22-2003, 02:13 AM

Are there any accounts of others performing this sort of magical spit therapy?

I would not be surprised if this "therapy" was common in the eastern Mediterranean back then.

Toto · 05-22-2003, 10:15 AM

Both Jewish and Greco-Roman culture ascribed healing properties to saliva. There are some sources here (scroll down to "(2) Healing the Sick")

Quote:

"Besides prayer magicians might - and Jesus did - resort to physical means. Most common was touching the patient, either fingering the affected area, or taking hold of the person; Jesus/the magician's hand was his most potent instrument. Fluid could help to make the contact closer; the readiest form of fluid was spittle, and both spittle and the act of spitting were commonly believed to have magical powers; so we find Jesus, like other magicians, smearing spittle on his patients or using a salve made with spittle."
- Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God? (1978) P. 169

05-20-2003, 08:47 PM	#1
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	Vespasian's healing the Blind as a source for Mark? Did Mark use the story of Vespasian using spit to cure a blind man in Alexandria as well as a lame man as a source for his story about Jesus curing the blind man with his spit in Mark, Chapter 8? The story is also told in John Chapter 9. I've heard some claim to this effect but we interested in hearing the real arguments. SLD

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05-21-2003, 07:42 PM	#3
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	I guess what strikes me as odd, is that the stories come out around the same time, Vespasian left Judea in 69 AD to return to Rome and the incident happened on the way in Egypt. The story was apparently widespread and was used partly to legitimize Vespasian as Emperor (although victory in battle also didn't hurt his chances) - in the same way that the story is used in John and Mark to legitimize Jesus as the savior. However whether Mark took the rumor from Vespasian's rumors, and put it in his book, or whether he just made it up from whole cloth or from some other source is I guess still an open question. SLD

05-22-2003, 02:13 AM	#4
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	Are there any accounts of others performing this sort of magical spit therapy? I would not be surprised if this "therapy" was common in the eastern Mediterranean back then.

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