hinduwoman

This thread is a continuation from another one. Below is what exactly I feel about it.

when it comes to untouchability, marriage rules and limitations of opportunites, and curtailing the rights of individuals, caste is not a problem. I thought that in the modern age, Caste would simply wither away. then I started reading a year ago and it got confusing. Please bear in mind I have never encountered real discrimination nor support of a caste-network.

1. Several social workers are saying that caste provides identity and strength to ordinary Hindus. [You see each caste has its own elders to pass out judgements and laws, which in rural areas take precedence over written laws.] A leading feminist even said that thoughtless equality is depriving them of their selfrespect. They are working in the field so they ought to know. but what if they are romanticising the poor?

2. Sevral foreigners are saying that the caste system is on the whole good, if we leave out its flaws. It stabilises society and enables it to survive. Except one or two who has gone over the top in reaction to Christianity, they do not have any axe to grind so they should be impartial? Here is what one Joe Elder says and it is a pretty balanced one.
The caste into which one is born determines one's occupation. False. People in the same caste engage in (and historically have engaged in) a wide variety of different occupations. Confusion arises from the fact that according to the mythical varna system of the idealized Hindu law books,
everyone is supposed to carry out occupations that match their varnas. However, the mythical varna system and the current caste system are two very different
phenomena. Only a very few caste names listed in official publications refer
specifically to occupations. Most caste names are merely designations whereby
other castes identify a given caste.

Caste designations are changeless.
False. There are many historical instances of castes changing (or trying to change) their caste names and behavior in order to receive advantageous treatment. Trying to convince someone in authority to label one's caste more highly in a public document is one well-tried way to change one's status. Some efforts to "move up" have succeeded; others have failed. There are instances of
castes moving to new areas and thereby changing their names and status. When
members of a caste acquire wealth or political leverage, they can sometimes use
such recourses to upgrade their caste.

Castes relate to each other in mutually accepted hierarchical patterns.
Frequently false. In any given locality some castes are likely to differ from other castes in their perceptions of what the "correct" local hierarchal patterns are. Disputes regarding the "correct" hierarchy occur (and have occurred) frequently.

Everyone called by the same caste name is related to everyone else by that same
caste name.
False. Castes are assigned names by other castes, living around them. Labeling
coincidences frequently occur. Thus, there are numerous castes, some of whose
members perform priestly functions, that are called brahmans by those around them. However, they are not related to all other castes that are called brahmans.
There are numerous castes, some of whose members make (or did make) pots, that are called "potters" by those around them that are not related to all other
castes called "potters." Every "gandhi" is not related to every other "gandhi"
Castes are Uniquely Hindu.
False. In India castes exist among Christians, Jains, Sikhs, Buddhists, and
Muslims. Frequently the rules about marrying within one's own castes are as strict among Christians, Jains, etc. as they are among Hindus.

Hinduism legitimizes preferential treatment according to caste.
Occasionally False. In the idealized Hindu varna system, being born into a high
varna was seen as a reward for virtue in a previous life. Being born in a low
varna was seen as punishment for sins in a previous life. However, throughout
India's history, movements have appeared within Hinduism criticizing
preferential treatment according to caste (or varna). These movements have
appeared within Hinduism criticizing preferential ranking and treatment
according to caste (or varna). These movements have included Buddhism, Jainism,
bhakti poets and saints, the Lingayats, Sikhism and philosophers such as Mahatma
Gandhi and Dr. B. R. Ambedkar, the architect of India's constitution.

Castes have been abolished
False. India's constitution declares that "untouchability" is abolished and
anyone discriminating against "untouchables" can be persecuted. In addition,
India's government now provides certain benefits to members of the "scheduled
castes," "scheduled tribes," and "Other Backward Classes." However, India's
constitution says nothing about abolishing castes. That would mean abolishing
lineages of related families from among which parents select their children’s
marriage partners, and that would not be possible.
In the United States, discrimination on the ground of race and gender has been
declared illegal. However, the U.S. has no laws abolishing race and gender. Just
as race and gender cannot be abolished by laws (although efforts can be made to
end discrimination on race and gender) so castes cannot be abolished by laws
(although efforts can be made-and some are being made-to end discrimination
based on caste)

3. Though hinduism can survive without caste, casteism can also survive without hinduism. Muslims and christians still keep to the castes their ancestors had folowing all purity and marriage rules. does this mean that caste as a social phenomenon is something more useful than religion?

4. In one board two dalits said that in the experience of their families, discrimination was done more on the basis of poverty than on caste and they bear no malice towards the poor Brahmins who shared their village. this sounds reasonable. But since this is the internet, I don't know whether they are really dalits or claiming to be only.

5. Many argue that proof of the need of caste system is that the untouchables do not convert. ambedkar asked his followers to become Buddhists and do away with caste, yet he could not persuade most! The Nama-shudras of Bengal stayed away from freedom struggle because the Congress was dominated by uppercastes, but did not become christians. Even now many Christian missionaries have found that lower classes would convert provided they can bring their whole caste-structure with them!

7. I asked round the lower castes in my locality who work as servants, porters etc. they simply cannot envisage life without caste. they want equality, but not the abolition of castesystem itself. caste to them is a social security network; example --- one labourer's mother died. He had to feed all castemembers in his village, which is costly. but in return all those shaved their heads in sign of mourning. he himself had got this job through another castebrother and it is expected that he will also provide jobs to others. In sickness or poverty or emotional need castes rally round their members. apparently, this even works in America and England --- you help out your castebrothers even if you have never seen him in your life! they feel secure and comfortable in the knowledge they belong to a particular caste. So when I want them to abandon caste am I being a snob thinking that being educated I know better than they what they need?

I think that caste system will ALWAYS lead to discrimination and infringement of rights of individuals. But many including some suffering from that discrimination does not think so themselves! They think that it can be a fluid system as it demonstrated in history: for example people have changed their castes by changing their functions and even entire castes have risen upwards and some have fallen. So is this identity business more important and is this possible?



Caste and racism

The objections to equating caste and racism are many. The argument is caste is like apartheid, but it is not racism as such. So far I have been able to gather the following points ---

a) Some like myself merely think that caste system is not based on skincolour. We are such mongrels that it is ridiculous. Otherwise the rest is OK.

b) Many nationalists (in the neutral sense) think that by using the term racism Westerners are trying to impose their categories on us. They themselves are guilty of it and so they make out that everyone is guilty in exactly the same way.

c) Some Hindu nationalists feel that by saying shudras are the original inhabitants the Westerners are questioning the rights of upper castes to live in India.

d) Many shudra and untouchable intellectuals themselves are unhappy with this equation. The view of Brahmins dominating the lower classes always and a stratified structure ( as present in racism)makes out their ancestors to be stupid and useless. They feel that their heroes and religious leaders who managed to rise upward or fought against this system are being ignored because African Americans who tried to revolt were always put down. Also the Aryan invasion theory declares that they as a race is inferior and had been so from the begining. some even argued that the AIT theory is supported by the Brahmins because it actually upholds the castesystem --- a race who is defeated is automatically inferior in valour and intelligence.

e) Sense of national identity in many: why should we let foreigners interfere as if they still rule us? they have taught us about democracy other human rights stuff, but they don't have to play Daddy anymore. We are ouselves making strides in improving the situation.

f) History shows that castesystem is more complex than racism. Even after the christain era intermarriges were normal and their children were accepted as legitimate, entitled to share in family property. when foreign tribes like Scythians, Greeks, Huns, turned up they became part of the caste system according to their functions. Again, families rise up and down. Many families and individuals have fallen into untouchability by violating caste rules. There had been shudras who became kings, even a tribal who established an empire like the Maurya who was handpicked and advised by a Brahmin on how to gain the kingdom, Shivaji a shudra who swore to establish a hindu kingdom by defeating Mughals. Entire castes like Jats and Reddies were elevated to Kastriyas after they took to soldiering leaving off farming. Also, hierarchies seem to be based more on wealth: plenty of poor Brahmins eked their livelihood by being priests for shudras. they had no actual power. The untouchables not surprisingly, were the poorest of all. but after the British rule when some rose to wealth they promptly had Brahmins declare they have risen in caste. (in Bengal there are even folksongs about it). It is therefore too simplistic to equate caste=racism, because in racism one remains a black forever. (Actually in many scriptures it is the same with shudras, but other scriptures do not agree on this point and social reality does not always match).

I find this last argument to be more convincing.

OK, any comments?

DMB

Have a look at this: http://europe.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asi...ste/index.html

Jai

What exactly is there to see?

hinduwoman

The second half of my post deals with exactly this topic --- why it is felt that caste and race are being deliberately equated for some hidden agenda.

Gurdur

Caste and racism are sometimes bound up together - even when there's absolutely no racial difference!
To give an example:
There is an "untouchable" class in Japan, who are currently called by the euphamism "Burakumin", meaning "village people". They in ancient times formed a caste who performed "polluting" duties, such as tanning, burial etc.
These people are in no way racially different to other Japanese at all - however, though discrimination is officially banned, the big companies in Japan are rumoured (and some proof exists of this) to maintain registers of births, deaths, and marriages of those people, so that they can be identified and refused employment.
Much the same kind of discrimination existed for a long while against people from Hiroshima - people refused to marry them, because of fears of genetic mutation, though that seems more like a cover-up of fears of ritual contamination.
Racism is also hardly a ever-defined issue; Japanese were declared "honourary whites" in the old apartheid South Africa....

copernicus

Interesting essay, Hinduwoman, but I think that you said a lot about the complexity of the caste system and very little about the complexity of the Western concept of racism. You are basing it too narrowly on skin color, but that is only one of the factors by which people engage in racial discrimination. It is true that within the African American population, there is a kind of racism practiced between white and dark-skinned individuals. (Spike Lee's film School Daze satirized this phenomenon in a college fraternity/sorority setting.) There is also some correlation between skin color and caste, with the brahmin class being decidedly more light in color than the untouchables. However, just as with Hindu taboos against caste intermarriage, there is still a widespread taboo against racial intermarriage in the US. It is becoming much more common, but racially mixed couples still have to think long and seriously before taking the step of marriage. Some light-skinned African Americans are able to cross the racial barrier and pass themselves off as "white" purely on the basis of not having too dark a complexion. US law, of course, gives people minority status even if they have a relatively tiny amount of ancestry in that minority category. It gets to be really ridiculous.

One thing that impressed me about your essay was the amount of discussion about those members of lower castes who professed comfort with, and support for, the caste system. This phenomenon has been prominent in American racial history--i.e. the use of such stories to help justify the racial divide. It was immortalized in Uncle Tom's Cabin before our Civil War, and you heard those same stories all the time during the Civil Rights struggle. In the 60's and 70's, there was a lot of discussion about "Uncle Tom's" and "oreo cookies". I could go on about the similarities between your descriptions of caste relations in India and race relations in the US, but there are just too many. After reading your essay, I have no doubt that the caste system is nothing more than a very old, very deeply ingrained system of racism.

hinduwoman

Er, it is the equation of caste system with skin colour/genetics that people are protesting against. Otherwise it is agreed that castesystem at its worst exhibits worst features of apartheid.

About Uncle Tom's cabin, it was only a novel. The point I am trying to make is that actual low castes also seem uncomfortable about leaving the caste system. When the Dalit leader Ambedkar declared that they would all become Buddhists, he could persuade about 15% of his own followers. The untouchables revered him like a god; but while they wanted abolition of untouchability and other discrimination, they felt that junking the castesystem itself is going too far. As I said also, the low castes working in the shops are also attached to it. But perhaps that is because they come from from the rural areas of backward states like Bihar mostly.

I think you have seen the news item about how lovers belonging to different castes were hanged. The boy was Brahmin while the girl was belonged to the farming community (she would belong either to the second or third varna). What astonished me was that the lowcastes are also opposed to this intermarriage, though it would have improved their status. This is actually a more extreme manifestation of what one of my distant uncle feels. He would give his daughter in marriage to only a member of his subcaste. Even a Brahmin alliance was rejected though that would have meant that he would have jumped all the way from shudra to Brahmin, simply because he did not believe in intercaste marriage.
Not ever lowcaste feels like this of course. But what is the psychology here? do the blacks feel like this?

copernicus

I understand, Hinduwoman, and I agree that skin color may not play as prominent a role in social ranking as it does in the West. I suspect that those who have been elevated to the brahmin caste, but still have very dark skin, are treated a little differently, because Indians don't expect brahmins to have dark skin. In any case, we ought to distinguish the criteria by which different societies judge "caste" or "race" from the psychology of racism, which is the same everywhere. All societies engage in social type-casting of this sort, and there are many in the West who consider sexism to be just another aspect of racism. The Western ideal of egalitarianism is that all people should have the same rights and the same opportunities, regardless of their ancestry or skin color or religion or whatever. The reason that I equate the caste system with racism has more to do with its psychology than the criteria by which it is implemented.

But so did "Uncle Tom" in the novel, who became an American icon for the type of person who was a member of the stigmatized class, but who nevertheless was comfortable with the system that caused the system of inequality.

Bear in mind that "the blacks" is an extremely diverse community, and I wouldn't care to generalize about how "they" feel. I just want to say that the prejudice against interracial marriage and relationships can be just as strong among blacks as it is among whites. There used to be a popular TV series in the US a few decades ago called "All in the Family", which had racism as one of its themes. The father of the family, Archie Bunker, was a stereotypical white racist male, and the series constantly poked fun at his attitudes. Later on, there was a popular sitcom called "Moving On Up", which was about a black family that had become upper middle class. However, the father of the household, George Jefferson, was a black version of Archie Bunker--extremely prejudiced against whites and interracial relationships. Your uncle is the Indian equivalent of George Jefferson.

[ August 22, 2001: Message edited by: copernicus ]

lpetrich

I think that some of hinduwoman's discussion of caste in India may be summed up by saying that caste is a sort of social or ethnic identity for many Indians.

This may explain why some lower-caste people dislike even upward mixed marriages, and this may help explain the existence of Muslim and Christian castes.

jess

personal name calling aside, It was called The Jeffersons (the theme song included the words 'moving on up' (I believe it was sung by the actress who played the neighbor (Lenny Kravitz's mom))), and was a spin off of All in the Family. One of the reasons he was the 'black Archie Bunker'--- the formula worked for one show, it would work for two.

And it did.