Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jordan · 02-28-2002, 03:53 PM

There's a bit of a fuss at the moment over here in New Zealand. At the formal dinner with the Queen and Prime Minister, Helen Clark, the PM took saying grace out of the program. She also commented that since NZ was a secular society, forcing one religion on everyone at the dinner was inappropiate.

cheetah · 03-01-2002, 08:10 AM

That's awesome!! Did anyone say anythign back to her? What a brave and forthright woman. Can you send her to America?

ohwilleke · 03-01-2002, 08:38 AM

Good news. Interestingly, I forget what the NZ national anthem is, is it not God Save the Queen?

Scrambles · 03-01-2002, 09:20 AM

It's not "God save the Queen" but it has the word "God" in it Goddammit!

btw Where did this info come from. I certainly wasn't aware of any fuss etc. The only fuss I was aware of were some british ass-lickers implying that it was inappropriate for the PM to wear pants when meeting the queen.

I personally don't understand some peoples obsession with a title that is solely hereditary.

Scrambles

Jordan · 03-01-2002, 02:31 PM

Yeah the anthem is "God Defend New Zealand". You're right, it wasn't that much of a fuss. But that's a good thing

No grace, and no one really minded

I heard about it in a column by an Act MP in the NZ Herald on the 26th.

Jordan · 03-01-2002, 04:06 PM

I was just reading the morning paper, and someone had written in:

"The PM misunderstands the meaning of having a 'secular society'. It simply means that when grace is said before a meal that no particular Christian demoniation is favoured.

Ms Clark's defination would have it mean "atheistic country" and seems to be actively against any prayer, even if others prefer it. It is troubling that the PM is trying to institutionalise the religion of atheism in the same way the old former Soviet Union did - attacking character and never answering the point"

Does anyone one know is this guy's defination of secular is the right one? I would think it's not, but I wouldn't mind finding out

Toto · 03-01-2002, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jordan:
I was just reading the morning paper, and someone had written in:

"The PM misunderstands the meaning of having a 'secular society'. It simply means that when grace is said before a meal that no particular Christian demoniation is favoured.

Ms Clark's defination would have it mean "atheistic country" and seems to be actively against any prayer, even if others prefer it. It is troubling that the PM is trying to institutionalise the religion of atheism in the same way the old former Soviet Union did - attacking character and never answering the point"

Does anyone one know is this guy's defination of secular is the right one? I would think it's not, but I wouldn't mind finding out

The letter writer may be confusing "secular" with "sectarian" - a non-sectarian prayer is one that does not favor any particular denomination.

When we use the word "secular" in the US, we mean non-religious, but not necessarily anti-relgious. This is the first definition from the online <a href="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary" target="_blank">Merriam-Webster Dictionary</a>:

Quote:

1 a : of or relating to the worldly or temporal <secular concerns> b : not overtly or specifically religious <secular music> c : not ecclesiastical or clerical <secular courts> <secular landowners>

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Toto ]

Egoinos · 03-01-2002, 05:43 PM

Maybe they should change our lovely (

) anthem from "God save our gracious Queen/long live our noble Queen" to "God save the Queen...the fascist regime..."

Deadend · 03-02-2002, 01:23 AM

I'm glad she took Philip with her to Australia, otherwise we would have missed him saying this:

Quote:

The Duke of Edinburgh had been introduced to members of two different tribes. Then he asked a tribal elder: "Do you still throw spears at each other?"

..The duke's gaffes are legendary.

He asked an Oban driving instructor: "How do you keep the natives off the booze long enough to get them through the test?"

And he told British students in China: "If you stay here much longer, you'll all be slitty-eyed."

And here's the original <a href="http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/shtml/NEWS/P3S1.shtml" target="_blank">article</a>.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: Deadend ]

02-28-2002, 03:53 PM	#1
Jordan Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Zealand Posts: 13	Queen visits NZ There's a bit of a fuss at the moment over here in New Zealand. At the formal dinner with the Queen and Prime Minister, Helen Clark, the PM took saying grace out of the program. She also commented that since NZ was a secular society, forcing one religion on everyone at the dinner was inappropiate.

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03-01-2002, 08:10 AM	#2
cheetah Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 2,118	That's awesome!! Did anyone say anythign back to her? What a brave and forthright woman. Can you send her to America?

03-01-2002, 08:38 AM	#3
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	Good news. Interestingly, I forget what the NZ national anthem is, is it not God Save the Queen?

03-01-2002, 09:20 AM	#4
Scrambles Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Chch, NZ Posts: 234	It's not "God save the Queen" but it has the word "God" in it Goddammit! btw Where did this info come from. I certainly wasn't aware of any fuss etc. The only fuss I was aware of were some british ass-lickers implying that it was inappropriate for the PM to wear pants when meeting the queen. I personally don't understand some peoples obsession with a title that is solely hereditary. Scrambles

03-01-2002, 02:31 PM	#5
Jordan Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Zealand Posts: 13	Yeah the anthem is "God Defend New Zealand". You're right, it wasn't that much of a fuss. But that's a good thing No grace, and no one really minded I heard about it in a column by an Act MP in the NZ Herald on the 26th.

03-01-2002, 04:06 PM	#6
Jordan Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: New Zealand Posts: 13	I was just reading the morning paper, and someone had written in: "The PM misunderstands the meaning of having a 'secular society'. It simply means that when grace is said before a meal that no particular Christian demoniation is favoured. Ms Clark's defination would have it mean "atheistic country" and seems to be actively against any prayer, even if others prefer it. It is troubling that the PM is trying to institutionalise the religion of atheism in the same way the old former Soviet Union did - attacking character and never answering the point" Does anyone one know is this guy's defination of secular is the right one? I would think it's not, but I wouldn't mind finding out

03-01-2002, 05:43 PM	#8
Egoinos Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 423	Maybe they should change our lovely ( ) anthem from "God save our gracious Queen/long live our noble Queen" to "God save the Queen...the fascist regime..."

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