Zimyatin

While we're on the subject - what can we unbelievers do if we miss the rapture?

Magus55

Most atheists say they are fairy tales.



Here is the difference - Mohammed didn't make the claim that Jesus did. Mohammed never claimed to be God - Jesus did and Mohammed wasn't under the authority of the Roman Empire who wanted nothing more than to stop the spread of Christianity - yet it still succeeded. If Jesus was such a fake, didn't perform miracles, and didn't come back from the dead ( proving His ministry of being who he said he was) - why would the Apostles continue to follow a dead leader from fear, to courage ultimately to their horrific and greusome deaths?


Why is the accounts of the few dozen authors of the Bible not sufficient enough for you? Even if the Bible wasn't innerant - why do the accounts of all the people of the Bible have no validity?

Luiseach

So what you're saying here, Magus55, is that Jesus was the Son of God simply because some people thought he was?

Is this what you are actually claiming as evidence for Jesus's divine nature?

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Magus55
If Jesus was such a fake, didn't perform miracles, and didn't come back from the dead ( proving His ministry of being who he said he was) - why would the Apostles continue to follow a dead leader from fear, to courage ultimately to their horrific and greusome deaths?

If the Reverend Jim Jones was such a fake, why would the people of Jonestown continue to obey him, ultimately to their horrific and gruesome deaths?

Why is the accounts of the few dozen authors of the Bible not sufficient enough for you?

I don't know, why is the accounts of the author of the Holy Qu'ran not sufficient enough for you? Why is the accounts of the author of the Book of Mormon not sufficient enough for you?

Even if the Bible wasn't innerant

Gotta love that spelling.

- why do the accounts of all the people of the Bible no sufficient?

And that grammar. Impossible to take this one seriously.

Mageth

Most atheists say they are fairy tales.

I personally say the Bible is largely myth, legend and metaphor - all distinctly different things than fairy tales.

Here is the difference - Mohammed didn't make the claim that Jesus did. Mohammed never claimed to be God - Jesus did

Well, that's Mohammed 1, Jesus 0 in my book. Claiming to be god (if that's indeed what Jesus did; it may be that Jesus' words were embellished by the gospel writers and others) doesn't make one god, BTW.

Of course, if you look at some Eastern religions, you'll see that adherents all essentially claim that God and they are one. Zoroastrianism/Judaism/Christianity/Islam are rather unique in their teaching that man and god are distinctly separate beings.

So if you say to a Hindu "Jesus was both man and God", the Hindu might well reply, "So what? So am I, so are you!"

and Mohammed was under the authority of the Roman Empire who wanted nothing more than to stop the spread of Christianity - yet it still succeeded.

Huh? Your history is seriously screwed up. The Roman Empire is generally considered to have ended in the Fourth Century. Note that in 312 C.E., Constantine converted to Christianity, and in 330 declared Constantinople the capital of a Christian Empire, issuing in the domination of the Christian (Catholic) Church in what once was the Roman Empire.

Mohammed lived from 570-632 C.E. The Arabian peninsula where he started Islam was not under the control of the "Roman Empire" at the time.

If Jesus was such a fake, didn't perform miracles, and didn't come back from the dead ( proving His ministry of being who he said he was)

Was Lazarus God too? He allegedly came back from the dead. Other people in the bible allegedly performed miracles and a couple of others came back from the dead. Were they gods too?

And then there are all the other alleged gods and men in other religions who performed miracles, and many even reportedly resurrected. Those themes are common throughout the world's religions. Why should I put any more weight in your myth's claims than in any of the others?

- why would the Apostles continue to follow a dead leader from fear, to courage ultimately to their horrific and greusome deaths?

You're really starting to sound like a broken record. How many times do we have to tell you, the accounts of the Apostles' "horrific and gruesome deaths" are largely church tradition and have no solid historical proof. In any event, the exact same argument could be made, for example, for the Mormons in 19th Century America. Many believed Joseph Smith's claims, and many were persecuted and died for those beliefs. People die for all sorts of weird beliefs. It happened 2000 years ago and it's still happening today.

Why is the accounts of the few dozen authors of the Bible not sufficient enough for you? Even if the Bible wasn't innerant - why do the accounts of all the people of the Bible no sufficient?

Umm, why aren't the accounts of Buddha, of Vishnu and Shiva, of Osiris and Set, of the Mayan gods, of the Greek or Roman gods, of the Norse gods, etc. etc. enough for you, Magus? Answer this honestly and you'll perhaps have my answer to your question.

TomboyMom

The difference is that you just think that atheism is an irrational, stupid stance, and christianity actually is. :-r

Rene

p.s. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the atheist forum.

TomboyMom

Why do christians constantly feel the need to oppress, discriminate against, control, torture, burn at the stake and generally be unpleasant to everyone else on the planet? Just wondering.

Rene

Family Man

Yes, but not in the sense that Hans Christian Anderson sat down one day and wrote it all up. It's a bit more complicated than that, wouldn't you say?

So a guy claiming to be a prophet must be lying while a guy claiming to be God must be telling the truth. See what I mean by simplistic.

And Ghandi was under the authority of the British Empire that wanted nothing more than stop the independence movement that he led. Yet Ghandi succeeded and he didn't even claim to be God. Not a very good argument.

You also might want to check out the history of Christianity. It succeeded because it was adopted by the Imperial family. It succeeded because of the Roman Empire, not in spite of it. Had it not been accepted by the Imperial family, Christianity would probably only be known to ancient historians specializing in obscure Roman cults. Remember, the truth is often a bit more complicated most dogma is.


Because they mistakenly came to believe that he performed miracles and came back from the dead. And remember, the disciples drop out of the story very quickly. The post-crucifixion history is primarily one of Paul and other non-witnesses to Jesus's ministry.

Partly because my mother taught me not to believe everything I read.

Partly because they were written decades after the events by a group of anonymous authors who, in all likelihood, inflated the abilities of their hero. That wasn't all that uncommon in ancient times, as you'd know if you read any ancient history at all. After all, the Caesars were proclaimed God too, but I suspect you don't believe that anymore than I do.

I could, if you like, point you towards a number of Biblical scholars -- many of them good Christians -- that will tell you that the birth narratives are fiction. That Jesus never walked on water or raised people from the dead (though he probably worked as a faith healer). If those things were exaggerations, what is so unreasonable that the rumors of his resurrection was exaggerated too? It's only common sense.

DarkBronzePlant

I've seen the Rapture Letters site before, and I am so bummed that I didn't think of it first. What a way to make a ton of money! And there's no way the product could fail to work as advertised!

:banghead:

Why did I think of it?!!!

hezekiah jones

So now we've got fundies coming to atheist DBs telling the atheists we shouldn't laugh at funny shit. What will they think of next. Next thing you know, some wacky nut that's dragging a cross across the country is going to register here.

And then he's going to tell us his babies were born in a K-Mart parking lot.