Soul Invictus

Thank you for your reply. I'll concede that the atheistic definition I gave was refined only by semantics, so for what I wrote, your definition still operates for my ideas.

As for you, I've tried to dissect your stance and I may need additional clarification. You say that you do not believe that any gods exist. Fine. Then you say that you do not believe that all gods do not exist. If I rephrased those stances wouldn't they turn out as:

1) You believe that no gods exist
2) You believe that some gods can exist.

If this is a correct interpretation, than I would be tempted to say that these are two mutually exclusive statements. It's a case of what's possible vs what's probable. I would say it takes a fairly opened minded atheist (that's one and the same isn't it? ) to say that they don't believe gods exist, however not discounting that some may exist. I'm not sure of the working ideas of atheists...there are probably very many that feel this way; it just hasn't been my experience to hear any voice this 2nd statement's possibility, like you have.

I guess what I'm missing is that although your second stance is an important issue in the matter, especially concerning objectivity, I'm missing how this refutes my claims, or for better wording, I don't see how it's material to my post. I also believe that God/god can exist. Anything is possible. The religious debate pretty much is a hardlined issue, which forces the competing sides to pick a stance, making the issue not can God exist but does God exist or not, which is a value claim, separate from the "possibility" issue. One side will be the atheists, which will say no, and the other side, there are theists that say yes.

Maybe a more appropriate question that should be posed to the atheists here is "Although your current thinking says there is no God, can your thinking tolerate the remote possibility that there is a God? Meaning is there no possibility in your perception that will allow for a God or some Gods (or however you wish to deal with the description) to exist? If the general consensus is no then that's not the material issue for the discussion, so we're back to my claims again.

Invictus

Goliath

Soul Invictus,

Wrong, and wrong again!

I do not believe that no gods exist.

I do not believe that some gods can exist.

I hold absolutely no beliefs whatsoever regarding the existence or nonexistence of any god of any kind. Whenever you try to characterize my stance on the existence of any kind of supernatural being by saying "You believe...", you're wrong!

Sincerely,

Goliath

CJD

The Philistine wrote: "I hold absolutely no beliefs whatsoever regarding the existence or nonexistence of any god of any kind."

I wonder, Goliath, do you attend church, pray, follow biblical ethical standards, etc.? Holding no beliefs whatsoever makes you (at least on paper) a quasi-agnostic. Maybe you should adopt a lifestyle that is more suitable to your, er, absence of belief? Maybe go to church every other week, maybe pray occasionally?

Assuming you never do the above, I am only left with the observable fact that you live like a practical atheist. In other words, never going to church, never praying, never testing your conduct against the bible, etc., says quite clearly that you absolutely hold a belief regarding the existence of God, or else your life would show it. After all, we can only tell each other's beliefs (or lack thereof) by observing each other's actions.

If you claimed to believe that logging on to the internet causes cancer, and yet you incessantly log on (without any apparent suicidal impulse), then I would say that you really did not believe that logging on to the Internet causes cancer. Of course, there is the possibility that you hold conflicting beliefs in this matter, with the pro-logging on to the Internet belief being dominant. Are you sure you absolutely hold no beliefs regarding this issue?

CJD

Goliath

CJD,

(edited to say: nevermind, I thought this was an insult...took me a minute to realize that it was a reference from--of all the terrible things--the bible. That doesn't mean that I have to like it, though).

Of course not.

I am not an agnostic, since I do not make the claim that it is impossible to know whether or not a god exists.

I have no idea what you're talking about. I do not believe that any gods exist. What sense would it make for me to pray?

Actually, I am an atheist.

I do the first three things that you've mentioned in this quote, but I hold no belief regarding the existence or nonexistence of the xian god. Therefore you are demonstrably wrong.

This does not follow (see above).

No, we know about each other's beliefs by either reading minds (which, as far as I know, no one is capable of) or by.......ready for this? this might be a bit new to you....asking them, instead of presuming to know what their beliefs are.

Not necessarily. What if I (the hypothetical I) merely wanted to commit suicide in a slow, agonizing way?

With regards to what issue? Cancer from the internet, or the existence of gods? If the latter, then my answer is yes. If the former, then (based on evidence, since evidence suffices in this case) I'd say no.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Starboy

CJD, do you suffer from CJD? If Goliath defines atheist as one who lacks a belief in god(s) and then claims that he lacks a belief in god(s) why does that make him a closet thiest? Last time I checked a thiest was a person that possesed a belief in god(s).

Starboy

Goliath

Starboy,

Okay, stupid question time: What does CJD stand for?

DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! We have a winner!

It's amazing how not only a huge number of theists, but a significant number of atheists do not know that there is a difference between holding a belief and not holding a belief!

Sincerely,

Goliath

CJD

Goliath, please. I am only pointing out what should be obvious: your position (or lack thereof) regarding the existence or non-existence of God matches your practical life. You do nothing explicitly Christian. Quite the contrary. You live like an atheist, as you are admittedly an atheist. It is foolishness to argue with the assertion that one can surmise one's beliefs through observing his or her actions. That would be like observing your life, with its complete lack of theistic practices, then ask you what you believe regarding God, hear that you do believe in God, and then all I am supposed to do is accept it. That is preposterous. You would have me suffer intellectual suicide or worse—become a pragmatist. Actions do relate to our beliefs. Please show some epistemic responsibility and agree with me here.

Regards,

CJD

Starboy

It is not the gods I know about that concern my lack of belief, it is the ones I don't know about.

Starboy

Goliath

CJD,

Yes, my lack of a position regarding the existence or non-existence of gods does indeed match my life.

Correct.

No it is not. In fact, you have incorrectly surmised what my beliefs are through my actions.

Why do you presume to know so much about me, when in fact you know NOTHING? I was a theist for over a decade of my life.

Again, you've confused me. I do not believe that any gods exist.

Actions and beliefs are indeed related. However, actions do not determine beliefs. A strong atheist and a weak atheist can live more or less the same lifestyle, but they do not hold the same set of beliefs.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Starboy

Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, aka bovine spongiform encephalopathy (BSE) aka mad cow disease.

Starboy