Freethought & Rationalism Archive

fando · 02-01-2003, 03:50 PM

Ilan Ramon was a secular Jew. He paid token symbolic respect to his cultural religion by observing some of the rituals. He also had a pencil sketch of a Moon landscape with him, created by a boy who died in Auschwitz. More info here. I'm interested in knowing if Ramon carried the original.

chrislee · 02-01-2003, 05:35 PM

"Maybe there's a different heaven where the non-Christians go.

Was the woman from India a christian?"

Probably not, with a name like that. Most Indian Christians are Catholic baptised with saints' names.

Toto · 02-01-2003, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Fr.Andrew
(Fr Andrew): Isaiah is not Christian scripture. I think that whoever wrote what Dubya read off the teleprompter today was looking for something generic and comforting and was, to a large extent, successful.
. . .

Agreed, the intent was to find something generic and comforting and not offensive to any major voting blocs. But why would the Bible be a source of generic comfort?

Valentine Pontifex · 02-01-2003, 07:32 PM

If it has gotten to the point that we will attack someone for merely quoting the Bible, then we secularists have become too much like the fundamentalists.

Sure Pres. Bush certainly has a lot very questionable positions on church/state issues. But when he is not making an order, signing a law, etc. than he has the same rights as you and I do to say whatever he wants. That we don't agree with it is irrelevent to that right. I will defend the right of anyone to quote the Bible, the Koran, or anything else.

One of the things that I most dispise in the Christian fundamentalists is that attitude that exposure to non-fundamentalist ideas is such a horrible thing. Shall we adapt the same attitude? No one is harmed when someone quotes the Bible (or the Koran, or Shakespeare, or Robert Ingersoll). Certainly no harm was intented by Pres. Bush. And I am shocked that anyone could possibly be offended by what he said.

Bush as a Christian was trying to take comfort with the idea that those seven will live on in some sort of afterlife. It indeed would have been shocking if he had not done so. If someone is a Christian then they are a Christian 24/7. Anyone who is not a Christian 24/7 is either a hypocrite or not a Christian at all. Bush's right to be a Christian is constitutionally protected. To say that he should not make religious statements in public is to demand that he renounce his religion. That is not our right. Now if next week Bush wakes up and realizes that he can no longer be be a Christian then that would be great. But until such time as he sees the light, he has every right to make religious statements in public.

Don't oppose his right to be a religious man in public, but rather oppose his policies on church/state separation. He can show his faith in public and I have no objection. But when he wants government faith-based programs that is where we should give determined opposition since his ideas are unconstitutional.

GaryP · 02-01-2003, 07:41 PM

But he has said in many ways and many times, that JESUS is the way.

To at least one of the astronauts, Jesus was NOT the way.

Therfore, he is at best hypocritical if he says that we can pray that they are "home".

If he really believes that Jesus is the "only way", then the Israeli astronaut is burning in everlasting hell.

cricket · 02-01-2003, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Certainly no harm was intented by Pres. Bush. And I am shocked that anyone could possibly be offended by what he said.

Then you've never been the grieving child of an atheist. I have, at an age when I still thought there might be a god to fear. Imagine an atheist/agnostic parent who suddenly and unexpectedly dies. You're his child and you know he hadn't believed in God. Hundreds of people are saying it to you: "Your daddy accepted jeebus as his savior so he is with God, now."

I don't worry that astronauts' kids will be offended, I worry that they'll be devastated, and Bush's remarks may hurt them even more.

cricket · 02-01-2003, 07:59 PM

But that's not a concern for Bush. And yes, he has a right to be a Christian, but don't delude yourself that he's trying to comfort astronauts' families. He's trying to comfort himself and others like him. If that includes some astronauts' families, great, if not, so much the worse for those families. It doesn't matter what the grievers feel, it's all about me me ME for Bush and his ilk. People like that make asses out of themselves when paying respects at funeral homes ... and when elected to public office.

crazyfingers · 02-01-2003, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cricket
He's trying to comfort himself and others like him.

I'd suggest that at least a significant part of the reason was to get points from his right wing fundamentalist handlers.

fromtheright · 02-01-2003, 10:04 PM

You folks are really nuts. You accuse Christian conservatives of being fanatics and zealots but you should listen to yourselves going off on the President of the United States using the Christian religion--like it or not a vehicle of comfort for most people in this country and, as Valentine noted, his own religion--to try to provide some salve for a grieving nation. You claim to be so concerned over one or two of the astronauts but apparently could give a damn about the religious sensibilities of the families of the rest of the astronauts or most Americans, except probably that you find them all irrational for "believing in the claptrap of the Christian religion". I'm amazed that you can't lighten up on either Christianity or George Bush long enough to let him try to comfort people's hurts.

And you think Christians are callous and hypocritical.

Godbert · 02-01-2003, 10:28 PM

Methinks I heard some nonsense fromtheright ..
If Bush wants to visit the religious or even atheist families and babble some christian nonsense that is his right.
But when he speaks in public, in his function as the president of a constitutionally secular country he has no business preaching his personal religious beliefs.

How would you (christians) and your family feel if on your death the president would make some thoughtfull remarks that strongly implied how proud he was of your lifelong achievements as a proud atheist who hated Jesus with all his heart and use the occasion to spread some more atheist propaganda?

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02-01-2003, 03:50 PM	#11
fando Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Los Angeles Area Posts: 1,372	Ilan Ramon was a secular Jew. He paid token symbolic respect to his cultural religion by observing some of the rituals. He also had a pencil sketch of a Moon landscape with him, created by a boy who died in Auschwitz. More info here. I'm interested in knowing if Ramon carried the original.

02-01-2003, 05:35 PM	#12
chrislee Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Santa Clara CA Posts: 132	"Maybe there's a different heaven where the non-Christians go. Was the woman from India a christian?" Probably not, with a name like that. Most Indian Christians are Catholic baptised with saints' names.

02-01-2003, 07:32 PM	#14
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	If it has gotten to the point that we will attack someone for merely quoting the Bible, then we secularists have become too much like the fundamentalists. Sure Pres. Bush certainly has a lot very questionable positions on church/state issues. But when he is not making an order, signing a law, etc. than he has the same rights as you and I do to say whatever he wants. That we don't agree with it is irrelevent to that right. I will defend the right of anyone to quote the Bible, the Koran, or anything else. One of the things that I most dispise in the Christian fundamentalists is that attitude that exposure to non-fundamentalist ideas is such a horrible thing. Shall we adapt the same attitude? No one is harmed when someone quotes the Bible (or the Koran, or Shakespeare, or Robert Ingersoll). Certainly no harm was intented by Pres. Bush. And I am shocked that anyone could possibly be offended by what he said. Bush as a Christian was trying to take comfort with the idea that those seven will live on in some sort of afterlife. It indeed would have been shocking if he had not done so. If someone is a Christian then they are a Christian 24/7. Anyone who is not a Christian 24/7 is either a hypocrite or not a Christian at all. Bush's right to be a Christian is constitutionally protected. To say that he should not make religious statements in public is to demand that he renounce his religion. That is not our right. Now if next week Bush wakes up and realizes that he can no longer be be a Christian then that would be great. But until such time as he sees the light, he has every right to make religious statements in public. Don't oppose his right to be a religious man in public, but rather oppose his policies on church/state separation. He can show his faith in public and I have no objection. But when he wants government faith-based programs that is where we should give determined opposition since his ideas are unconstitutional.

02-01-2003, 07:41 PM	#15
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	But he has said in many ways and many times, that JESUS is the way. To at least one of the astronauts, Jesus was NOT the way. Therfore, he is at best hypocritical if he says that we can pray that they are "home". If he really believes that Jesus is the "only way", then the Israeli astronaut is burning in everlasting hell.

02-01-2003, 07:59 PM	#17
cricket Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: St Louis MO USA Posts: 1,188	But that's not a concern for Bush. And yes, he has a right to be a Christian, but don't delude yourself that he's trying to comfort astronauts' families. He's trying to comfort himself and others like him. If that includes some astronauts' families, great, if not, so much the worse for those families. It doesn't matter what the grievers feel, it's all about me me ME for Bush and his ilk. People like that make asses out of themselves when paying respects at funeral homes ... and when elected to public office.

02-01-2003, 10:04 PM	#19
fromtheright Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 633	You folks are really nuts. You accuse Christian conservatives of being fanatics and zealots but you should listen to yourselves going off on the President of the United States using the Christian religion--like it or not a vehicle of comfort for most people in this country and, as Valentine noted, his own religion--to try to provide some salve for a grieving nation. You claim to be so concerned over one or two of the astronauts but apparently could give a damn about the religious sensibilities of the families of the rest of the astronauts or most Americans, except probably that you find them all irrational for "believing in the claptrap of the Christian religion". I'm amazed that you can't lighten up on either Christianity or George Bush long enough to let him try to comfort people's hurts. And you think Christians are callous and hypocritical.

02-01-2003, 10:28 PM	#20
Godbert Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 779	Methinks I heard some nonsense fromtheright .. If Bush wants to visit the religious or even atheist families and babble some christian nonsense that is his right. But when he speaks in public, in his function as the president of a constitutionally secular country he has no business preaching his personal religious beliefs. How would you (christians) and your family feel if on your death the president would make some thoughtfull remarks that strongly implied how proud he was of your lifelong achievements as a proud atheist who hated Jesus with all his heart and use the occasion to spread some more atheist propaganda?

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