BlessNot

Why have all the rational arguments for the existence of God seemed to have been successfully refuted?

If God exists, is it unreasonable to suppose that there would be at least one irrefutable proof of his existence?

Why do theists say that the existence of god is "self evident" ?

Does it have something to do with what Paul wrote:

"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
Romans 1:20


Any thoughts ?

Heathen Dawn

Theists often say: "The whole universe is evidence of God".

My response: "So what is God evidence of?"

Milton

And do you mind explaining what is your point by making such question?

You tell me. You are the one who is claiming that they have been "successfully refuted."

Heathen Dawn

Theists tell me they look at the universe and see God. The universe is evidence of God. All I see is the universe. If you can look at the universe and say its orderliness and beauty and majestic size bespeaks a God, how much more so the orderly and beatiful and majestic God bespeaks! If the universe can be evidence for something external to it, why shouldn't God be evidence to something external to him? And so on all the way up ad inifinitum.

I see the universe. Nothing more.

streamline

:notworthy
Excellent way to put it, HD, and pretty much exactly as I would have put it myself. "Seeing" just the known universe ought to provide more than enough wonder, awe, excitement and humility for our species ...at least, I would think so..I have never felt compelled to imagine that there is an anthropomorphic intentional agent behind it all, and even more, an agent who is pre-occupied with our species' every thought, desire and well-being.

Of course, the theist(s) will declare that (his or her own personal version of) God simply is, and unlike the universe, needs no explanation outside itself. As to why this is the case, well, because it just is, dammit.

Milton

You are forgetting that by you using the capital G, and considering that Romans has been quoted, it must be the Christian God. Therefore, by you referencing the Christian God, you are to use at least the definition of eternity/origin for that God.

So, what I am saying is that, by definition, God cannot be evidence of anything other than Himself. That is why your question of "what is God evidence of" does not lead to what you thought it would lead to.

Unless you want to use a Mormon type of God, where there are gods after gods--where we would later become Gods ourselves and have our own world to rule, etc.

CaptainOfOuterSpace

Because all such arguments are not rational. Most of these are appeals to emotion, personal experience, or fear.
Most Christians will say that they know "in their heart" that God exists, and will then pity you for your lack of faith. The more modern concepts of "god," a la Einstein or Hawking, are simply metaphors for the complexity of the universe. They are certainly not referring to any Bronze-age godheads.

Any theist that uses a modern god-concept to justify a belief in Yahweh or Jesus is a hypocrite and a dilettante.

RTS

We must realize science is an 'observational system' that relies on 'evidence' as its foundation. Religion and a belief in God is a 'definitional system' where anyone can define anything as they choose to support their belief and agenda, and by their definition they are always defined as right. Faith in the belief is the most important aspect in a definitional system, and evidence is either only something to be manipulated to support their definitional beliefs or something to be ignored.

BlessNot

His existence can be successfully refuted by simply reading the bible itself starting at Genesis. One can see plainly that back then there is plenty of evidence of miracles. We see an entire universe being formed out of nothing, the sun and the moon, the stars, the firmament, light appearing out of nowhere, man being created out of the dust of the earth, a woman being created from Adam's ribs, not only that but the first couple had constant communication with their creator who even walked with them in the garden even after they were kicked out for supposedly disobeying his orders to not eat the forbidden fruit.

As time moves forward the OT seems to have less miraculas activity but God still seems to be around. Moses has some conversations with god at the burning bush that never really becomes consumed from the flames.

I could go on but I am trying to keep it brief, but do you see a pattern taking place here?

It seems to me that god's existence might be self-evident in the beginning of the bible and the OT but for some reason he becomes very silent for a couple hundred years after the OT is completed.

And so it is today, where is the evidence of his presence? It seems like divine activity is non-existent.

Why don't we see God manifest in the world around us anymore?

Why are believers of today so willing to be forced to settle for just feeling god in their hearts, when people of bible times had more solid proof and evidence ?

The common objection today is that we are supposed to have faith without any proof or evidence.

If that is the case, then why did god show himself literally to those of old bible times?

Supercaliber

I guess he had to start somewhere?

I still think sometimes were in this huge God paradox where He's covered all the bases and we have no idea what were talking about, theists and non-theists alike..Everybody's thoughts and ideas contradict everybody elses..What a mess..

Isn't every case solvable in the human realm?..

What would happen if the whole world converted to atheism tomorrow?..How would the world proceed?