Reasonator

An amazing story out of Minnesota ---

Students and faculty formed a quiet little freethought group at the College of St. Catherine, a Catholic women's college in Saint Paul. It has grown to eighteen members in six months. They decided to start a speaker series and chose Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor of FFRF for their first speakers. They rented a hall on campus, paid the fee, stated the nature of the event clearly, got approval, and advertised.

Dan and Annie Laurie drove five hours, all the way from Madison WI, with a low-key, reasonable presentation planned around feminist freethinkers. Very sensible stuff for a women's college.

Forty-five minutes before the event was scheduled to begin, a security officer showed up and locked the doors of the hall --- "on orders of the college president," a nun. Fifty audience members showed up to locked doors, finally deciding to reconvene in a public park.

The next day the entire campus was in a rage over the censorship. Protests from students and faculty are ongoing right now. The president justified the decision by noting that she "wouldn't let skinheads speak on campus, either." Everyone sees it for what it is: a free speech issue, not a religious issue.

Two news stories: here , and here .

Best of all: this is the same college that was the basis of the novel Calling Bernadette's Bluff --- life imitates art, big time. Check it out.

Jinto

1. McGowan obviously does not have much understanding of Catholic theology
2. Apparently, you CAN call yourself a college and not allow the open exchange of ideas
3. This is what happens when our educational facilities are run by idiots.

DA McGowan

Yes indeed, it's the college from my book. And gee, thanks, Jinto, for the glib condescension... I always enjoy that.

I know much, much more about Catholic theology than I'd care to. I have spent twelve years on a Catholic college faculty and have picked the brains of two theologian friends to get a very detailed picture of it. They call themselves a "questioning faith," with "a tradition of open intellectual inquiry" that "encourages an unfettered dialogue among diverse points of view." Read Vatican II. Read Dei Verbum. Read Ex Corde Ecclesiae. Read our college's mission statement on the website . The words and actions of the Catholic church are in constant conflict, but what I said is exactly true. "Disappointed" is a tactful way to say "not in the least surprised."

We are effectively using their own words to hang them in the media, and it's working. Stay tuned.

faust

I'm new here so I don't know who i'll offend but I must give my support to McGowan.

The Catholic Church so far as I can tell, is the only institution which acknowledges "catholic" to still mean "universal." My father grew up in pre-Vatican II times and I was raised catholic, all catholic school. I have not read nearly as much as i perhaps should, but my understanding is that any university, Jesuit, or catholic affiliated, goes to great pains to make sure everyone is allowed to be heard.
The issue here is that the group went through authorized channels to get permission, as an unofficial group, and -paid- to rent a room on campus for a presentation. It was formally granted. The group is getting selective enforcement. The dean says they didn't go through the proper channels, yet it is clear that they did. They petitioned as an unaffiliated group, paid, got permission, and at the last minute, as capricious violation of principles, were denied a voice and paid service. IMHO they have grounds to sue. Substitute Humanist with Islamic, Jewish, or non-abstinance oriented birth control, and see if they would have been forced out.
According to the article I read, even the dean admits that had they gone through the route she says they should have, they would have still been denied.
You have a catch-22 here. They did everything by the book, obeying the spirit -and- the letter of the policy, and were denied on basis that they should not have followed the "outside affiliation" policy b/c McGowan was staff, yet even had they gone through the "affiliated" group process for permission they would have -still- been denied.

Now you want to argue what a "college" is? I hereby form the "College of Faust 0wNz" but it's non-accredited. These guys are trading on their reputation.

Boil down the situation, strain out the bias, the religion, the issue, and the bureaucratic bullshit and you are left with one kernel of truth: The Dean Didn't Like It... and she used whatever means she had to censor the discussion.

Dean no like = abuse of power by invocation of arbitrary rules defined by her.

End of story. I applaud McGowan and it's good to see they were able to meet in another location.

Toto

Welcome to the Boards, all of you Minnesotans.

The Catholic Church may claim to promote free inquiry and freedom of conscience, but it emphasizes that it is not a democratic institution. Intellectual inquiry is all right up to a point, but only so far as it supports the existing order.

Given that, anything you can accomplish is to your credit.

Jinto

I had no idea that you posted to this board. My sincere apologies for jumping to conclusions.
:notworthy

Vorkosigan

DA, with all due respect, there can be no free inquiry where certain principles are unassailable and where control ultimately resides in an authority structure. It is true the Church has a robust tradition of intellectual life, but at the same time the list of intellectuals attacked, disciplined, even killed by the Church is long. The College of St. Catherine has free speech not because it is Catholic, but because it is a college.

They call themselves a "questioning faith," with "a tradition of open intellectual inquiry"

They can call themselves whatever absurdity they please. But an organization that maintains a huge list of banned books, catechisms and creeds is not one with a tradition of open intellectual inquiry. The Church tolerates some intellectual freedom as a necessary evil. But don't confuse intellectual divisions among Catholics with openness in the Church.

Vorkosigan

DA McGowan

Perhaps I'm just being too damn subtle. You and I are in COMPLETE agreement, Vorkosigan. The Catholic claim of openness is completely and embarrassingly contradicted by their own history and their ongoing actions. I know that and have always known that. That is precisely my point: I am attempting to make their own self-contradictions painfully clear to them and to all others. I've tested their claim and, lo and behold, they can't stick to it.

My claim in the newspaper to be "disappointed" was disingenuous. It was a sympathetic pose for public consumption. I wasn't in the least surprised that they were intolerant of openness, since I never believed that they believed their own rhetoric.

Any chance my position is clear now?
:banghead:

Vorkosigan

Sorry! You didn't read like you were being subtle to me. My apologies.

Vorkosigan

dangin

Completely separate from this exact discussion. I, in no way am related to Dale, or receive funds from the purchase of Dale's book. But whether this topic interests you or not, you must go a buy a copy soon, and read it. Very hysterical, wonderful read. It has at least one (actually several) of those scenes where you are laughing so hard, you are crying, and struggling to breathe. The FBI informant at the philosophy club is one such scene. I read it out loud to my dad, and we were both reduced to sobbing masses for a few minutes until the laughter abated. Great book.