Bumble Bee Tuna

Atheists often complain that God damns people to eternal torment, and this is not loving.
Theists often respond that God does not damn people, but instead they choose to damn themselves. (Also, Satan is the one doing all the bad things, to some people)

I don't understand this. I understand that God wants us to choose Him. But why must it be a choice between Him and eternal damnation?

It's like fine make it a choice but why make it only those two options? Seems like God is restricting our free will, after all. I choose neither- oops, not allowed.

Why can't God just let us cease to exist (though this is certainly not the most loving option IMO)?

Basically, why does God allow Hell to exist? Why does he let people go there? And if God isn't the one actively sending souls to hell, what is? And why doesn't he stop it?

-B

winstonjen

Because he doesn't love (TM) us, and doesn't care what happens to us.

Magus55

Because Sin against God is an eternal crime against a Holy being. The punishment for sin is death of the soul, and the soul is eternal so its forever. God lets Hell exist because He created it for Satan and the fallen angels to spend eternity. They are eternal beings and rebelled against God, therefore punishment is forever. Humans chose to follow Satan and Sin against God, they made what once was a prison for only Satan and the angels a prison for all who remain in sin.

God has to let people go there because they choose Sin over Holiness. If you reject God, its the same as telling Him that you enjoy the earthly pleasures of the flesh over the purity and perfection of God. Sin is a crime, and for God not to punish people who aren't cleansed of it would make him unrighteous, and if He is unrighteous He isn't God.

You can't have a Heaven without a Hell. The soul is eternal and the spiritual world has to remain balanced. There is no inbetween. Its White and Black, Heaven and Hell. The choice of which you go to is up to you, Hell - separated from God for eternity because sin is more important than holiness, or Heaven - together with God for eternity, sharing in his love and riches, valuing Holiness and sinlessness above the earthly world.

Remember, Hell was NEVER created for humans. It was solely for Satan. If humans remained sinless since the Garden, there would be no humans in Hell. But by following Satan's influence and example, and valuing sin more than God, humans made themselves a place in Hell.

Magus55

If He didn't love us or care what happens, He wouldn't have come to earth and died by our hands to pay the price of the punishment we brought to ourselves.

winstonjen

Says who? Or are you admitting that god isn't all-powerful?

Demigawd

Hey, Magus55, how's the divine Amway going? Made any converts yet amongst us Infidels with your inspired interpretations of the bible?

Spaz

Still that "since it's a crime against a holy eternal being the punishment is eternal" thing? I went to that carm link and what they said made absolutely no sense. It's just a roundabout way of saying "just because." The crime is finite why should the punishment not be?

Infidelettante

As I understand it God made Heaven for the Angels. Then he had to make Hell for the Evil Angels. Then he made the Earth for people. Then there were Evil People.

Where to put the Evil People? Not in Heaven. That won't work, everybody in Heaven being so perfect, other than the Evil Angels, but they're going to Hell.

Heaven, Earth, Hell? Heaven, Earth, Hell? OK, all the Evil People go to Hell with the Evil Angels. Good Angels, God, and Good People in Heaven. Evil Angels, Evil People in Hell. Seems fair to me.

Do you expect God to make a whole other third place to put the Evil People? Do you have any idea how busy God is? Do you know what it takes to create something...well, all it takes is a word, you know,*let there be...*and all , but that's not the point. You should have thought of that before you decided to be an Evil Person.

OK so you didn't choose to be an Evil Person. You are just a person. But you see, all people are evil. So, you are, by definition an Evil Person. No, no don't try to arque it won't do you any good his mind is made up, people are evil and Evil People go to Hell.

Who says you're evil? Well he does of course silly, who do you think? No, you are not allowed to do that, where would we be if everyone started to ask questions like that? *Nobody gets to see the Wizard* remember that? You're stuck being evil Dorothy, get used to it!

Alright, here's how it works but, if you breathe a word of this you're going to be Satans asswipe for ever, got it? Good. How does he decide who is good and who is evil. He's got this huge mirror and he has the Good Angels wheel it out in front of the throne. Throne? Yes, he has a throne! Where do expect God to sit? a Lazyboy?

So he looks in the mirror and he can make anybody he wants to appear in the mirror. Say he wants to see you in the mirror. Well, there you are next to him in the mirror. The he looks at his goodness and compares it to your goodness to see if you measure up. Of course you don't! Then he tells his Scribe Angel to write *evil* next to your name in the Book of Life. You are on your way to Hell. Yes he really has a mirror. What, you think I make this up?

Now about the Good People. First they are not really Good People. They are really Evil People. He just calls them Good People. Let me explain. Yes, I can but you will have to listen and want to believe. Kind of like Peter Pan and Tinker Bell? Yes, kind of like Pete...now stop that!

He set in front of that mirror for a very long time. How long? Don't start with me! it was a long, long time OK! OK. Then one millenium he had this odd look on his face and he asked the Scribe Angel * Scribe Angel, how many Good People are there in the Book of Life?* And the Scribe Angel said, *None Lord. There are no Good People in the Book of Life.*

*How can that be*he asked the Scribe Angel? *How can it be that there are no Good People in the Book of Life?* *I am only a Scribe Angel Lord. *the Scribe Angel said * I don't know such things.* And God said to the Scribe Angel *get my Son in here, I have a job for him.*

Then the Son says *What's this Get my Son stuff? We are I, I mean, You are us and We am I you is me are one... here I am. What do you want Daddy?* Good people? Evil People? They're all Evil People, burn'em, case closed over and out.

All right, I'm listening. Yes. Ok. I see. Mmmhmm. Ok. Noway! Hosea? Are you out of our mind? I can see your side I being you and us thinking alike I'm thinking there is no way out of this is there? Didn't think so. Happy to do it for the little people Dad. Only let me make sure I got it right.*

I get born from a woman so I can be like them. Only I wont be like them because I will only have a mother not a father. I live among them so I can know what it's like to be them but I wont be like them because I can make food appear out of no where and heal people and walk on water.*

Most of all I won't be like them because I will be sinless and they are all Evil People. And, because I'm going to be sinless they are going to kill me. Which is another way of being like them/not like them because I won't stay dead. Three days tops? Can do!*

So you want me to take all the evil away from them when I die? Can I do that? OK. I just didn't know. Fine. What do I do with it?
I mean where does it go? I don't want it and I can't keep it because I don't think I could still be God if I did.

It gets paid for. Is that the best you can do? It gets paid for? You think me being God and dying pays for all the evil. I guess that works but who knows, I mean this has never been done. Of course not. I like the idea. It works, it works I say we give it a try what have we got to lose? The garden, the flood, Bable, things go wrong. Who knew?

So you want I should die to pay for all the sin. This a little drastic don't you think? I mean all of it at once? You can't do a little here, a little there, a little now, a little later. What's the rush you 're always in such a hurry. We do it your way don't mind me I'll live.
*I'll live* I made a joke. I'll live. No body else has but I can. I'll live he said.

I'm thinking, what makes all these Evil People evil? We never talk. Talk to me. I'm paying for the evil. I'm OK with that, really I'm OK. But I'm thinking how do we know they are evil these Evil People?
Yes I 'm familiar with the mirror. Now and then I take a peek. What? You think this hair just happens? I take care. I groom. Is that a bad thing? I should think not. Back to the Evil People.

You roll the mirror out and look in it and compare them to you.
Them to you? What does that mean? What do you compare? Your goodness against their goodness. You don't have a problem with this? Listen to me. You have got to get some time away from these friggin Angels. Your brain is going soft. You can't compare your goodness with their goodness. Why? Because you always win is why.

They can't ever win. There is no consolation prize. You loose you go to hell. Yes I think you need to rethink this! Duh! You can't condemn people just because they aren't as good as you. There is nobody as good as you you are GOD for Christs sake! Which reminds me. You wanted me to go be human and die to pay for all the evil. Do you know how close I was to that? This close DAD! this close!

And why? Because you think only of yourself. You think if it's not up to my standard I'll just destroy it. These are people Dad. You can't just treat them like dirt. Don't even try it! They are people you here me? People. Not dirt.

Now give me that mirror. My hair is a mess.

winstonjen

And yet now he's doing nothing. {deleted} if your god exists, he is either powerless or ineffective. There is no difference in this world whether he exists or not. For all purposes, he may as well not exist.

orac

Says who? God?

If God made this rule, then God made a choice to damn people to hell for being created imperfect.

If God didn't create the rule, who did? Are there natual moral laws that God is forced to obey, or did he choose to obey this rule?

The love your God shows towards his people is simply awe inspiring.

Yes, I realise you believe he went in for a little bit of masochistic self-torture, but I'm not entirely sure why your God wouldn't forgive us until after someone had been tortured for a little bit. (No, Jesus didn't die for our sins - last I heard christians claim that He's alive and kicking, and will be back from heaven sometime within our generation.)