ShabbyChick

From what I've read and from the vegetarians I know, it seems there are quite a few different ideas on exactly what constitutes a vegetarian diet.

So... If you are a vegetarian, what are *your* rules and why?

As an example, some say it is not ok to kill mammals for food, but fish are fair game. Others say it is not ok to kill any animal fo food that raises it's young. Etc.

Also, is it possible to get a nutritionally complete diet *without* the use of supplements?

Thanks!
Shabbychick

droolian

Hi ShabbyChick, A true vegetarian doesn’t eat any animal flesh, which includes fish. A lot of people have the idea that vegetarians eat fish. I guess some people consider themselves vegetarian while eating fish. I don’t know where that comes from. There are many people that are vegetarian for health rather than ethical reasons, so that may be where the idea comes from. Since fish has at least as much dietary cholesterol as beef (ounce for ounce), I don’t understand it being recommended for health.

Vegetarians do consume milk or eggs though. Even now plenty of ethical vegetarians haven’t a problem getting milk from a cow that they know is revered. However, most people that are health vegetarians and vegans stay away from dairy and eggs. Vegans don’t eat anything that comes for an animal. I’m a vegan for ethical and health reasons. There’s plenty of good vegan frozen treats that mimic Ice Cream and contain, of course, no cholesterol. I try to keep away from heavily processed foods, but those are fun at times. Many health problems come primarily from consuming animals.

The only thing I try to supplement is vitamin b12. This can be obtained from fortified cereals, soymilks, rice milks, or sublingual form. B12 deficit is serious and can two or more years to show up. A vegetarian can get b12 from dairy or eggs, but anyone, even every day meat eaters, can benefit from a supplement on b12. 39% of all, even meat eaters, tested were found needing additional b12.
[quote] "A surprising 39 percent of the participants had blood levels below 350 pg/ml, the level at which neurological signs of vitamin B-12 deficiency or high homocysteine levels sometimes occur. And younger people were just as likely to have low levels as older people. What's more, people who got their B-12 from supplements, fortified breakfast cereals, or dairy products were less likely to be deficient than those who got more of their B-12 from meat, poultry, or fish.

The ADA is respected and here’s their take on a well-planned vegan and vegetarian diet. They define different types too.
<a href="http://www.eatright.org/adap1197.html" target="_blank">http://www.eatright.org/adap1197.html</a>
Here’s a review of some faux meat products---just in case someone is interested in cutting back or eliminating meat. I don’t know how healthy they are or anything else. Some were reviewed as great and others as nasty.
<a href="http://www.cspinet.org/nah/03_02/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.cspinet.org/nah/03_02/index.html</a>

FaithNoMore

All I can say is that I like girls that are vegetarians for "obvious reasons". You are what you eat!!!

Maverick

I would also be interested in the typical vegan and/or vegetarian stance on the use of animal byproducts. Do you avoid the use of the products, such as cosmetics?

Here's an <a href="http://www.discover.com/aug_01/featcow.html" target="_blank">article </a> that lists many of the byproducts.

Maverick

droolian

Hi Maverick, vegans try their best to avoid anything that comes from an animal---even whey in some candy bars. Some people speculate that the prions from BSE can be passed in the water supply. Even wildlife have it now. Either wildlife got it from the rendered animal food fed to farm animals or maybe from a decaying cow near the water…who knows. If it can be caught through water, we’re all in danger vegan or not.

Most people start out vegetarian and ease into going vegan. I was vegetarian for a long time before I ever knew or thought about how badly dairy cows are treated.

People are vegetarian for many different reasons. With me it was ethical and the better I felt the more I got into the health side as well. So I finally, after a long time, eliminated all the animal products, and that is something that takes a conscious effort until you know what to look for. There’s a vegan substitute for everything basically, but reading labels took getting used to.

[ April 22, 2002: Message edited by: droolian ]</p>

Yellow3

Droolian, did you read the same article I did? Everything from plywood to glossy paper to glue to vitamin supplements to just about any and all hair products to fricking ASPHALT involves animal by-products. There are vegan substances for the obvious things, I'm sure - milk and eggs, leather, maybe glue - but everything?

Jeez. I'd figured the laboratory reagents come from things like this (we recently did a lab using CIPped DNA, which requires Calf Intestine Phosphatase to make in the first place), but some of the stuff on that list's just surreal. Then again, you've got to do something with the rest of the animal.

- Jen

droolian

You’re right that the list is surreal. There’s particularly great soaps made from plant sources---best soap I’ve ever seen. Cosmetics are made vegan too---I use a vegan hair gel. There are vegan gelatins for capsules and food. You do have to look for these things though.

The main reason the cow is used like that is because those parts are cheap. That’s the reason they fed cows back to cows in the first place---BSE. Howard Lyman (Mad Cowboy) talking about the rendering plant and how cows along with downed pets and road kill are used is really disturbing.

Kip

I vegetarian does not necessarily eat any animal products and would therefore be vegan. I am a lacto pesco vegetarian, or a vegetarian who eats dairy products and fish. I am a vegetarian for health, ethical, and aesthetic reasons.

Studies repeatedly show that vegetarians and fish eating society consistently live longer and have healthier lives than others. Another poster said that fish has as much cholesterol as other meat and is therefore equally "bad". I doubt that is true for all fish. More importantly, fish are low in fat and the fat they do provide are essential omega-3 fatty acids. The low fat content, moreso than anything else, is the suspected explanation for the health benefit of eating fish.

I recommend the vegetarian diet to everyone if only for the health benefits.

Dr. Jagan Mohan

I am a Ovo-Vegetarian for religious convictions that in turn are ethical in principle.

I do not eat meat of any sort that is obtained by Killing which involves pain.

Being a vegetarian for purely Health purposes is a bit selfish although rewarding.. If you are a Vegetarian, you will feel an elevation from ethical standpoint that you are not responsible for merciless slaughter for filling your own belly.

You cannot effectively question the Abrahamic God for creating Pain, Hell and Suffering which contradict with the 'all loving' and omnipotent power of God, while we ourselves are not so considerate of the pains of the lesser animals.

SmashingIdols

Wow, guess I'm stirring up the diet pot today.

I was a prominent vegetarian/vegan for 14 years, and :

1. there are numerous heatth considerations, not the least of which is the increase of processed soy products (long-term effects on neural tissue by protease inhibitors in soy), b12 consumption and metabolism, effects of carbohydrate loading/dependencies, overeall caloric intake, effects of amino-acid depravation in children, etc etc etc.
2. world foot shortages will not be corrected through diet, but rather through distribution - the problem is one of supply and demand. There is more than enough food produced right now to feed everybody - problem is getting it to where it is needed. And that problem is financial, not dietary.
3. most vegans are misinformed about what is and what is not derived from animal products. To eliminate all of them is a daunting task, and has to be done with the question - to what level? Many vegetarian/vegan foods are processed in ways that utilize animal products which are not end ingredients - example: Sugar is refined with bone. Final questions have to go so far as to ask about the production of plastics and vinyls which are not biodegradable.
4. Ethical reasons are of little or no importance to people who live on unarable land - central asian steppes, african grasslands, etc. Luckily, herbivores can digest grasses (primates have no mechanism to digest cellulose), and thereby provide food source.
5. Habitat reduction worldwide show greater invasion/destruction by agriculture than livestock production. Vegetarian/vegan sources hate this fact, and avoid this topic like the plague.
6. The biggest woe in the world is the impact man is having on his environment - and that is due to man's shift from hunter-gatherer diet to agricultural based diet and thereby urban-centricity. Ironically (for vegetarians) the most sustainable societies we have encountered are stone-age hunter-gatherers, like the native american cultures were 300 years ago. Would you like to take the stance that they were immoral, but you (urban, driving cars, using electricity) are moral due to your veganism? Especially hard when your lifestyle as a vegan/vegetarian demands what theirs did not - the conversion of open land to agriculturally developed land.
7. From first hand experience - veganism is fanatical and lends itself well to neurosis. Perhaps it is the strict diet control, and the eventual feeling of some vast "meat conspiracy," but it is inevitable that it will divide you from family and friends (perhaps with you believing they are bad for eating animals), and drive you into association only with people having this commonality. I personally feel that is unbalanced and unhealthy. I know for a fact that several prominent national vegetarians/vegans are devoutly religious about a vegetarian Jesus, and the true teachings of the Bible. I think the diet has some impact here as well, in the mental health arena that is.

I could go on for hours, but honestly - eat what you will for the best reasons you have. Here is a short compiled <a href="http://net.indra.com/~mc/dietref.html" target="_blank">list of reference material</a> that I put on line to help Dr. Jagon Mahon find us an herbivore primate - something that will assist his assertation that man is really an herbivore.

Good luck!

[ April 26, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]</p>