Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mustknow · 09-26-2002, 08:11 PM

If humans are just a group of particles that make up a complex system, and everything in that system happens because of the previous cause, is there really any freewill at all, considering everything you do is caused by something you can't control in the first place? Every thought you think and every move you make is caused by the last reaction of particles in your body or outside it. To put it simply, humans are nothing but a group of random particles reacting to a stimulus and have no control over anything because the thought you have to control something in the first place was caused by a random action that, through a series of events, ended up sending random electrical impulses through your brain.

Can there be freewill if you aren't really "willing" anything to happen in the first place?

-Mustknow

Neophyte · 09-26-2002, 09:37 PM

I do think that humans are indeed groups of particles and thus, all of our actions and decisions are in fact caused. Of course, I was rather shocked when I first realized this. But the illusion of free will is so real, that we might as well embrace it.

Theli · 09-26-2002, 10:40 PM

First of...
Thoughts and actions aren't random.
If they were, we would not be able to survive.

Quote:

If humans are just a group of particles that make up a complex system...

...Every thought you think and every move you make is caused by the last reaction of particles in your body or outside it.

You are contradicting yourself here.
First you refer to humans as a systems of particles and then you claim that humans can't make choices because the system of particles cause the thoughts and thus cause the choices.
"You" are a system. And that system make the choices.

[ September 26, 2002: Message edited by: Theli ]</p>

mustknow · 09-26-2002, 10:52 PM

Theli, Humans do make choices, but they cannot control which choices they make. Every on of your thoughts was caused by something, which was caused by something, which was caused by something else, etc... These causes are nothing but chemical reactions, so you don't really have a choice of what choice you choose. So, you don't really have "will".

Theli · 09-27-2002, 01:51 AM

mustknow...

Quote:

Theli, Humans do make choices, but they cannot control which choices they make.

A downright paradox.
What do you refer to as "human" and what is making the choice/controling the choice?

Quote:

Every on of your thoughts was caused by something, which was caused by something, which was caused by something else, etc... These causes are nothing but chemical reactions, so you don't really have a choice of what choice you choose. So, you don't really have "will".

Once again... what am "I"?
Are you suggesting that the chemicals aren't part of me?
If they are part of the last line of events that trigger my actions then I would say that they are indeed a part of me.

Laurentius · 09-27-2002, 03:54 AM

Humans are complex self-regulating systems. The fact that the system itself has its own inputs to make into the equation enables one to say that there is free will.

AVE

abe smith · 09-27-2002, 05:04 AM

: There izz free will, of course; but *I* am the only one who has it.

Mr. Sammi · 09-27-2002, 05:27 AM

There is an idea that some sort of free will exists during NOWtime. This includes the ability to influence an event which is in the process of change before it moves into history. An event moves permanently into history when it is unable to further react with the Universe, it then becomes a passive element in experience.

NOWtime is a relation between the Universe and the actions of change.

The granularity of perceptions of NOWtime in cooperation with the granularity of the motion base gives the free will index.

Example : if your perception of NOWtime is based on a sampling rate P, and your action base is based on a motion base of P+i, then life will pass you by like a true determinist.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

Clutch · 09-27-2002, 06:11 AM

mustknow, why don't you carefully outline what you think would have to be true of something before it could be said to have free will.

Then your question will be much easier to answer. In fact, you may answer it yourself.

Nebulous definitions and unshared assumptions lead to a great deal of wasted writing and misunderstanding on this topic. I suggest you really nail down what you want to ask about, before asking about it.

Hubrys Polymetis · 09-27-2002, 10:17 AM

Cause and effect would do away with free will. I think that that is painfully obvious. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a convenience lie to continue to believe. Would do away with morality for sure!

Of course, cause and effect isn't the only thing that disproves free will. Logic itself can prove that free will doesn't exist, without having to use induction.

09-26-2002, 08:11 PM	#1
mustknow New Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California Posts: 3	Is there really free will at all? If humans are just a group of particles that make up a complex system, and everything in that system happens because of the previous cause, is there really any freewill at all, considering everything you do is caused by something you can't control in the first place? Every thought you think and every move you make is caused by the last reaction of particles in your body or outside it. To put it simply, humans are nothing but a group of random particles reacting to a stimulus and have no control over anything because the thought you have to control something in the first place was caused by a random action that, through a series of events, ended up sending random electrical impulses through your brain. Can there be freewill if you aren't really "willing" anything to happen in the first place? -Mustknow

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09-26-2002, 09:37 PM	#2
Neophyte Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: CA, USA Posts: 38	I do think that humans are indeed groups of particles and thus, all of our actions and decisions are in fact caused. Of course, I was rather shocked when I first realized this. But the illusion of free will is so real, that we might as well embrace it.

09-26-2002, 10:52 PM	#4
mustknow New Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: California Posts: 3	Theli, Humans do make choices, but they cannot control which choices they make. Every on of your thoughts was caused by something, which was caused by something, which was caused by something else, etc... These causes are nothing but chemical reactions, so you don't really have a choice of what choice you choose. So, you don't really have "will".

09-27-2002, 03:54 AM	#6
Laurentius Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Lucky Bucky, Oz Posts: 5,645	Humans are complex self-regulating systems. The fact that the system itself has its own inputs to make into the equation enables one to say that there is free will. AVE

09-27-2002, 05:04 AM	#7
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	: There izz free will, of course; but I am the only one who has it.

09-27-2002, 05:27 AM	#8
Mr. Sammi Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montr�al Posts: 367	There is an idea that some sort of free will exists during NOWtime. This includes the ability to influence an event which is in the process of change before it moves into history. An event moves permanently into history when it is unable to further react with the Universe, it then becomes a passive element in experience. NOWtime is a relation between the Universe and the actions of change. The granularity of perceptions of NOWtime in cooperation with the granularity of the motion base gives the free will index. Example : if your perception of NOWtime is based on a sampling rate P, and your action base is based on a motion base of P+i, then life will pass you by like a true determinist. Sammi Na Boodie ()

09-27-2002, 06:11 AM	#9
Clutch Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3,751	mustknow, why don't you carefully outline what you think would have to be true of something before it could be said to have free will. Then your question will be much easier to answer. In fact, you may answer it yourself. Nebulous definitions and unshared assumptions lead to a great deal of wasted writing and misunderstanding on this topic. I suggest you really nail down what you want to ask about, before asking about it.

09-27-2002, 10:17 AM	#10
Hubrys Polymetis Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Georgia Posts: 22	Cause and effect would do away with free will. I think that that is painfully obvious. But that doesn't mean that it isn't a convenience lie to continue to believe. Would do away with morality for sure! Of course, cause and effect isn't the only thing that disproves free will. Logic itself can prove that free will doesn't exist, without having to use induction.

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