Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Demosthenes · 10-29-2002, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Primal:
SF, this is DialecticMaterialist from the AN. Didn't we already discuss how your ideas are at odds with the first and second laws of thermodynamics? And that you seem unable to say exactly why limitations are bad. I don't see why a limitation is necessarily bad, though I've noticed you've changed the statement from "all limitations are bad" to "some, perhaps all, are bad". Anyways, it's interesting how people on this board are more receptive.....or are they? Whatever that entails is beyond me.

What do you mean that the ideas are at odd with the laws of thermodynamics?

Keith Russell · 10-30-2002, 10:21 AM

Greetings:

I want to live forever.

Keith.

SecularFuture · 10-30-2002, 11:06 AM

Helmling

Quote:

� Am I the only one inclined to think that if we succeeded in fullfilling the agenda of "transhumanism" that we would no longer be human?�

That�s the point. The human body is too fragile, and the human mind is too primitive. We need a serious upgrade.

Primal

Quote:

� Didn't we already discuss how your ideas are at odds with the first and second laws of thermodynamics?�

In the future we will be able to break more laws than we can now.
<a href="http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00003AEF-D7A6-1D3D-90FB809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=1" target="_blank">http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00003AEF-D7A6-1D3D-90FB809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=1</a>

Quote:

�And that you seem unable to say exactly why limitations are bad.�

You should be able to figure that out on your own. If you try to run 2,000 miles you would eventually get tired. Imagine a future where you don�t get tired anymore. Some of us can only think for certain amounts of time. Now � try to imagine a future where intense thinking could be just as easy as breathing. You have to use your *imagination* to understand.

Here is an article about Immortalist philosophy by Bruce J. Klein
<a href="http://www.imminst.org/index.php?act=ST&f=57&t=151&s=6e381e29361595319f2a cc20dfdd1587" target="_blank">http://www.imminst.org/index.php?act=ST&f=57&t=151&s=6e381e29361595319f2a cc20dfdd1587</a>

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: SecularFuture ]

Demosthenes · 10-30-2002, 12:19 PM

There's nothing in the laws of thermodynamics that prohibit unending life as long as we continuely maintain it by renewing information and energy. Perhaps in the far far future, we may run into problems due to the entropy, but we still have plenty of time to figure out something. It's a bit premature to declare the impossibility of unlimited lifespan, afterall we've only just gotten going. You can find me on the imminst forums as alex when I'm actually there which isn't often due to my heavy schedule.

SecularFuture · 10-30-2002, 02:00 PM

Quote:

"It's a bit premature to declare the impossibility of unlimited lifespan, afterall we've only just gotten going."

VERY GOOD POINT!

Quote:

"You can find me on the imminst forums as alex when I'm actually there which isn't often due to my heavy schedule."

I'll see you there.

HaysooChreesto! · 10-30-2002, 03:04 PM

I find the idea of physical immortality to be a tantalizing concept. Science has a pretty good idea of how the human body ages, but there's currently no treatment for it (sorry I don't have a link).

Transhumanism is such a refreshing concept from the death worship that is almost universal among religions. I've discussed this subject before with people who consider themselves Christians and to a man/woman they find the idea of transhumanism repulsive. How strange it is that people find old age, it's many indignities, and finally death preferable to a massive life span with ever present youth.

I'm only 33 right now, but already I'm aware that I'm not as physically capable as I was in my early and mid twenties, and it ain't gettin' better as time marches on.

As long as an asteroid doesn't hit the planet and humanity doesn't destroy itself, at some point in the future, there will be humans who live healthily for hundreds of years.

Chip · 10-30-2002, 03:17 PM

I enjoy many of David Gray's music and lyrics. He has a song, "Forever is Tomorrow is Today"

You say it can't be done
You'd rather die of fun
Get out of the way
For me for you for everyone
Forever is tommorow is today

You can see the complete lyrics at <a href="http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/9847/forever.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/9847/forever.html</a>

If I get more time I'll see if I can make a more substantial contribution to this thread.

Regards, Chip

Primal · 10-30-2002, 03:53 PM

Quote:

There's nothing in the laws of thermodynamics that prohibit unending life as long as we continuely maintain it by renewing information and energy. Perhaps in the far far future, we may run into problems due to the entropy, but we still have plenty of time to figure out something. It's a bit premature to declare the impossibility of unlimited lifespan, afterall we've only just gotten going.

Yeah but I'm going into probability here. According to probability people will run out of energy someday, and people will not be able to make anymore energy out of nothingess. Also something, eventually, would kill you. Disease,murder,accident etc.

It is far more likely that I'll get hit with lightning 1000 times then the second law of thermodynamics shall fail.

SecularFuture · 10-30-2002, 05:32 PM

Quote:

�According to probability people will run out of energy someday, and people will not be able to make anymore energy out of nothingess.

I�m glad that you�re not bringing the A.N. mentality over here to the I.I. Your argument is a smart one, and deserves an answer.

The universe�s energy supply is going to last us for another billion billion + years. By that time, we might have a manmade energy source far beyond our current comprehension, and our �laws�. Think of all the great things that have come to us over the past 50 years. Now � can you even begin to imagine the technology we might have billions of years from now? Is there such thing as "impossible"?

Quote:

�Also something, eventually, would kill you. Disease,murder,accident etc.�

Yes � there is a chance of that happening, but does that mean that we shouldn�t try to become an immortal race? What is the harm in trying? Its better than not trying at all.

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: SecularFuture ]

bluefugue · 10-30-2002, 05:48 PM

I don't know about avoiding entropy billions of years down the line, but simply conquering physical aging in humans would lead to interesting questions in the short term (i.e. over the next few centuries).

How would memory be affected? Would your brain run out of room? Would you need a RAM upgrade? Would old memories get washed out as new ones flood in?

How would it play out along socioeconomic lines? It seems to me unlikely that the "non-aging" treatment or genetic engineering would be immediately available to everyone. How would social inequality play out in a world where the rich and powerful are immortal too?

Also, would institutions stagnate without "turnover"? Anyone who had landed a "lifelong" position -- a judge, a professor with tenure, etc. -- would simply never leave it. Would there cease to be room at the top for young and hungry types to make their mark with new ideas etc.?

For that matter, would there *be* any young and hungry types? Wouldn't the world population have to be maintained at a static level if most people were immortal? Sure, some would still die off because of accident, but the birth rate would have to be severely decreased if overpopulation were to be avoided. Would people want to live in a world where new children weren't constantly being born? How would this affect basic reproductive/social drives? Or would we simply colonize other planets to house the vast hordes of new people? (This may not be logistically feasible for a couple of centuries.)

[ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: IesusDomini ]

10-30-2002, 05:48 PM	#20
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	I don't know about avoiding entropy billions of years down the line, but simply conquering physical aging in humans would lead to interesting questions in the short term (i.e. over the next few centuries). How would memory be affected? Would your brain run out of room? Would you need a RAM upgrade? Would old memories get washed out as new ones flood in? How would it play out along socioeconomic lines? It seems to me unlikely that the "non-aging" treatment or genetic engineering would be immediately available to everyone. How would social inequality play out in a world where the rich and powerful are immortal too? Also, would institutions stagnate without "turnover"? Anyone who had landed a "lifelong" position -- a judge, a professor with tenure, etc. -- would simply never leave it. Would there cease to be room at the top for young and hungry types to make their mark with new ideas etc.? For that matter, would there be any young and hungry types? Wouldn't the world population have to be maintained at a static level if most people were immortal? Sure, some would still die off because of accident, but the birth rate would have to be severely decreased if overpopulation were to be avoided. Would people want to live in a world where new children weren't constantly being born? How would this affect basic reproductive/social drives? Or would we simply colonize other planets to house the vast hordes of new people? (This may not be logistically feasible for a couple of centuries.) [ October 30, 2002: Message edited by: IesusDomini ]</p>

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10-30-2002, 10:21 AM	#12
Keith Russell Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 1,336	Greetings: I want to live forever. Keith.

10-30-2002, 12:19 PM	#14
Demosthenes Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: a speck of dirt Posts: 2,510	There's nothing in the laws of thermodynamics that prohibit unending life as long as we continuely maintain it by renewing information and energy. Perhaps in the far far future, we may run into problems due to the entropy, but we still have plenty of time to figure out something. It's a bit premature to declare the impossibility of unlimited lifespan, afterall we've only just gotten going. You can find me on the imminst forums as alex when I'm actually there which isn't often due to my heavy schedule.

10-30-2002, 03:04 PM	#16
HaysooChreesto! Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 7,737	I find the idea of physical immortality to be a tantalizing concept. Science has a pretty good idea of how the human body ages, but there's currently no treatment for it (sorry I don't have a link). Transhumanism is such a refreshing concept from the death worship that is almost universal among religions. I've discussed this subject before with people who consider themselves Christians and to a man/woman they find the idea of transhumanism repulsive. How strange it is that people find old age, it's many indignities, and finally death preferable to a massive life span with ever present youth. I'm only 33 right now, but already I'm aware that I'm not as physically capable as I was in my early and mid twenties, and it ain't gettin' better as time marches on. As long as an asteroid doesn't hit the planet and humanity doesn't destroy itself, at some point in the future, there will be humans who live healthily for hundreds of years.

10-30-2002, 03:17 PM	#17
Chip Banned Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Earth Posts: 382	I enjoy many of David Gray's music and lyrics. He has a song, "Forever is Tomorrow is Today" You say it can't be done You'd rather die of fun Get out of the way For me for you for everyone Forever is tommorow is today You can see the complete lyrics at <a href="http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/9847/forever.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Alley/9847/forever.html</a> If I get more time I'll see if I can make a more substantial contribution to this thread. Regards, Chip

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