Ted Hoffman

Hi Albert,
Your poetic abilities and your flair for the English Language has not escaped me in these forums. Your knowledge of the "classics" intrigues me.
I am sincerely interested in knowing why you believe in God.
I know there could be many reasons for your belief but I am more interested in your "strongest reasons" for believing that there is a God. You say U were once an atheist. What made you change your beliefs/ worldview?
Indulge me an anyone else who is interested in all the details.
Please.

kwigibo

And who converts to catholicism, is there a less charismatic religion?

Jobar

Jaliet, I too have enjoyed Albert's writings, even when I disagree. He has a real flair for this sort of argument.

I personally think he's a mystic, although for some reason he denies it. He carries around Catholic dogma like it was something precious, but he can't say why. I have been trying to clarify why he denies pantheism <a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=50&t=000006&p=2" target="_blank">here,</a> and so far it looks to me as if we agree on everything but two points: 1. that God is no other thing than spirit/soul/freewill/consciousness, and 2. that we cannot speak of God in any meaningful way. (I, as you can tell, am an unabashed pantheist- and also an atheist, when Yahweh/Allah, or any personal God, is being discussed.)

I think that Albert is the most intellectual theist on these boards, and I, also, hope to come to understand his POV.

Albert Cipriani

Dear Jobar,
You've posted the question I've been dreading. I knew it was just a question of time and someone would ask me to justify my belief in God. Facing so direct a question is like being a cornered wet rat facing a hungry cat.

It's so much more easy to defeat lousy arguments and correct mis-interpretations or supply metaphysical foundations for theological assertions. Are you sure you wouldn’t rather I did that? Surely, you must have some problem with the Trinity or indulgences we could argue about! Could I interest you in "Mary Mediatrix of all Graces"?

Alas, at the risk of loosing what credibility I have with you, can I defer my answer? It is overwhelmingly weak. Ergo, it will take a great deal of effort for me to support it.

And I'm backlogged on my Atheist Sonnet thread. Isn't my first obligation there? The lines of reasoning like so many crooked tree branches are loaded with so many juicy over-ripe posts bursting with ignorance, just begging for me to shake them down. I'm buried at work and so my fingers have been tied so all I can manage is to just read a little here yesterday and today and probably tomorrow.

I know: excuses, excuses. Please try to understand. Since you've called me out on this, I will respond to you. Just give me time. You are one of the more serious posters here and I appreciate that and don't want to give you the impression that I'm shinning you on... tho I am just for the moment. Thanks for understanding. Sincerely, Albert

Amos

The implication here is that popular modern charismatic religions are good, which is just wrong and the opposite is true. Above and beyond this are Catholic charismatics motivated to keep their charisma hidden and a secret.

Just as Jesus told Peter to tell noone that he was a Christian, so should we tell noone that we are Christians . . . for the test of a mystic is how well he can keep it a secret.

Amos

He might even tell you that he does not believe in God because "to believe" implies "to doubt" since both are needed to make the other known. It is based on this fact that faith is not allowed in heaven (or there would be temples in the New Jerusalem) and if faith was allowed in heaven doubters would go to heaven and the difference between faithers and doubters would only be the degree of understanding the faith/doubt complex of their own mind.

Would this not make atheists impoverished believers and heaven a state of mind?

Amos

David Gould

I would like Albert's answer on this, too. Albert and you, Amos, are the theist posters I most like to read.

Both of you have altered my prejudiced views of Catholicism to some extent, while at the same time being entertaining and interesting.

Obviously, I do not agree with either of you on the existence of God question (and I am unsure of exactly how much theologically you agree, either).

I would like to know why you believe (or know in you case Amos) that God exists.

David

Amos

Albert has a beautiful way with words but it is the poetry behind them that rings the bell . . . which in itself already proves "the Bell."

Me and God? I am no theologian and don't really know but just pretend to know. I actually like to defend the philosophy behing Catholicism and just write down my pondering thoughts. It is not my ambition to convert anyone but test my skills in the art of eristic refutation.

[ January 22, 2002: Message edited by: Amos ]</p>

Panta Pei

Amos and Albert are obviously Knights Templar, though, if they admit it, then they really are not.

~ Steve &lt;---don't look at me, I am definitely not a KT

kwigibo

no that is not the implication. catholics are such a dreary unmotivated bunch, that even disregarding the floors inherent in their philosophy, you'd have to be mad to convert as an adult.