Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tdekeyser · 08-05-2003, 08:10 AM

I'm not a bible child or anything. I was raised with no religion.

I saw clips of "The Passion" and I have to say it really pissed me off that religion killed a human being (Jesus). No, it does not inspire me or anything, it convinces me that deist religions are the most dangerous. I had no idea that Jesus was killed in such a barbaric manner and this was all from RELIGION!

Anyone else see the clips? It looked very graphic, bloody and deep.

Arken · 08-05-2003, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tdekeyser
I'm not a bible child or anything. I was raised with no religion.

I saw clips of "The Passion" and I have to say it really pissed me off that religion killed a human being (Jesus). No, it does not inspire me or anything, it convinces me that deist religions are the most dangerous. I had no idea that Jesus was killed in such a barbaric manner and this was all from RELIGION!

Anyone else see the clips? It looked very graphic, bloody and deep.

...if he existed at all, and if the stories in the bible are accurate then he was killed over religion. Christians made up for it a thousandfold over the next two millenia... c.f. the Crusades, the conquest of the Americas, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.

brighid · 08-05-2003, 08:17 AM

Here is the problem td... it is extremely doubtful that the Romans killed Jesus for the Jews. Don't believe the propagandist bullshit of the passions as it appears to be hardly different then the Third Reich propaganda of Nazi Germany and their portrayal of the "Juden Rat."

No doubt it is a skillfully crafted movie and has some cool special effects, et al. Don't get pissed off about something that never happened. It isn't worth wasting your time or energy on.

Brighid

Rational BAC · 08-05-2003, 08:25 AM

You are saying that crucifictions never happened? Or that as represented in this movie, it was somehow overdone?

Or just that it was represented in the case of a non-existent Jesus and therefore is untrue in all respects? The Romans were civilized you know and would never have stooped to unnecessary suffering.---- NOT

brighid · 08-05-2003, 08:35 AM

Quote:

You are saying that crucifictions never happened? Or that as represented in this movie, it was somehow overdone?

Honestly, I see no evidence that the crucifixion ever happened BUT the portrayal of the Jews as being the instigators and responsible for the Romans crucifying Jesus is completely inconsistent of what is known about Jewish/Roman relations at the time. I find it incredibly unlikely that the ruling Roman conquerers cared one iota about a blasphemous Jew who claimed to be the son of a God the Romans did not worship. That wasn't a punishable crime under Roman Law. Jesus did nothing against the Roman state as told by the Gospels and the Romans had no reason to crucify a man that was twice found innocent.

If the representations of the movie are accurate I would say that the suffering of Jesus has been gratuitously overdone and a clear indicator of the obvious bias of the director. It's claims of authenticity are suspect given that the Romans of the time spoke Greek and not Latin (as but one example of the innaccuracy.)

Quote:

Or just that it was represented in the case of a non-existent Jesus and therefore is untrue in all respects? The Romans were civilized you know and would never have stooped to unnecessary suffering.---- NOT

I doubt the story is anything more then a fictional tale that was created long after the alleged event took place, especially given the lack of congruency between the Gospels of said event.

I made no claim that the Romans were civilize or unwilling to inflict unnecessary suffering, but that reality isn't essential to an argument against the validity of the claim that the Jews were responsible for the violent death of Jesus. In fact it is irrelevant.

If I remember correctly there were few crimes that carried the punishment of crucifixion (sedition being one I can remember) and it doesn't appear Jesus committed any offense that carried that punishment.

Brighid

Arken · 08-05-2003, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
You are saying that crucifictions never happened? Or that as represented in this movie, it was somehow overdone?

Or just that it was represented in the case of a non-existent Jesus and therefore is untrue in all respects? The Romans were civilized you know and would never have stooped to unnecessary suffering.---- NOT

Crucifixions did happen. We have archaeological evidence along with more than one contemporary account... we have no reliable evidence outside of the bible that says that the crucifixion happened or that Jesus ever existed.

brighid · 08-05-2003, 09:53 AM

http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html

http://home.earthlink.net/~kirby/xti...omb/roman.html

Quote:

The information presented on the Roman practice of crucifixion shows that the very act of taking a body down from the cross for burial was, if practiced at all, the exception to the rule. The popular phrase "Food for Crows," the line about the crucified being an "ugly meal for birds of prey and grim scraps for dogs," the response of Tiberius to the request for burial, the comment from Horace, and finally the story from Petronius about the guard who allowed the body to be stolen off the cross all indicate that part of the very shame of crucifixion was the denial of burial rites as a last act of humiliation. Moderns do not quickly recognize the cruelty of this, but in ancient times to die without proper burial was considered a most horrible fate, particularly to the Jews. Yet, as Sloyan shows, crucifixion itself was an exercise in cruelty. Reserved for "slaves and those who threatened the existing social order," it cannot be assumed that any mercy would be shown to one who had been considered deserving crucifixion �

b

tdekeyser · 08-05-2003, 10:10 AM

I am by no means an expert on this, but from what I understand, all of the 12 guys that preached Jesus message (after he came back to life) were crucified as well. One even asked to be crucified upside down as not to be the same death as his "god".

Toto · 08-05-2003, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tdekeyser
I am by no means an expert on this, but from what I understand, all of the 12 guys that preached Jesus message (after he came back to life) were crucified as well. One even asked to be crucified upside down as not to be the same death as his "god".

This is Christian mythology.

How did the apostles die?

Quote:

In the matter of martyrdom suffered by the apostles, there is a larger question that needs to be resolved. Were the apostles even real historical persons? There are reasons to suspect that at least some of them were merely legendary figures. Here presumably were men who took the gospel into various countries and provinces, but the only records of their activities are to be found in the traditions and writings of early church leaders, who had a special interest in the growth of Christianity.

. . .

In The Search for the Twelve Apostles, Dr. William Steuart McBirnie examined the maze of traditions about the fate of the apostles, and although he seemed to retain his belief that the apostles were real historical characters who had suffered persecution and often martyrdom, he admitted that the traditions were sometimes so inconsistent and contradictory that it cannot now be determined how all of the apostles died. He referred to Tertullian's claim that the apostle John was tortured and "boiled in oil but was delivered miraculously," and then admitted that "(t)his story does not seem to have much foundation in historical fact," even though tradition says that the Church of San Giovanni "has been built on the spot in Rome" in honor of the apostle's escape (Tyndale House, 1977, pp. 116-117). McBirnie concluded that the best traditional evidence indicates that John died in Ephesus of old age. If this is so, John would not have been an example of an apostle who died for what he knew was right.

brighid · 08-05-2003, 11:14 AM

Quote:

I am by no means an expert on this, but from what I understand, all of the 12 guys that preached Jesus message (after he came back to life) were crucified as well. One even asked to be crucified upside down as not to be the same death as his "god".

I did a quick google search and couldn't find anything about this, perhaps someone with more knowledge can post something. I doubt those stories are any truer then the claims that the Shroud of Turin is the burial cloth of Jesus, but I could be mistaken.

Edited to add: I found some info on the death of disciples (from a Christian appologetics site so take that for what it is worth)

http://www.24x7christian.com/apologe...surrection.PDF

ALLEGEDLY:

Peter was crucified upside down
Paul was beheaded
Nathaniel was skinned alive
John died of old age in exile
Andrew was crucified on an X shaped cross
Philip was hung from a pillar
Thomas was killed by arrows
Bartholomew was flayed and crucified
Matthew was killed by a sword

... what happened to the other three I don't know.

If seeing this movie enrages you against Judaism I think Mel Gibson and his revisionist movement will have been successful, and that would be a damn shame.

Brighid

08-05-2003, 08:10 AM	#1
tdekeyser Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 341	I saw clips of "The Passion". I want to see it I'm not a bible child or anything. I was raised with no religion. I saw clips of "The Passion" and I have to say it really pissed me off that religion killed a human being (Jesus). No, it does not inspire me or anything, it convinces me that deist religions are the most dangerous. I had no idea that Jesus was killed in such a barbaric manner and this was all from RELIGION! Anyone else see the clips? It looked very graphic, bloody and deep.

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08-05-2003, 08:17 AM	#3
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Here is the problem td... it is extremely doubtful that the Romans killed Jesus for the Jews. Don't believe the propagandist bullshit of the passions as it appears to be hardly different then the Third Reich propaganda of Nazi Germany and their portrayal of the "Juden Rat." No doubt it is a skillfully crafted movie and has some cool special effects, et al. Don't get pissed off about something that never happened. It isn't worth wasting your time or energy on. Brighid

08-05-2003, 08:25 AM	#4
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	You are saying that crucifictions never happened? Or that as represented in this movie, it was somehow overdone? Or just that it was represented in the case of a non-existent Jesus and therefore is untrue in all respects? The Romans were civilized you know and would never have stooped to unnecessary suffering.---- NOT

08-05-2003, 10:10 AM	#8
tdekeyser Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 341	I am by no means an expert on this, but from what I understand, all of the 12 guys that preached Jesus message (after he came back to life) were crucified as well. One even asked to be crucified upside down as not to be the same death as his "god".

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