Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pantera · 03-13-2002, 12:12 PM

Just spotted this on the BBC website. Somebody please say it ain't so.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1871000/1871184.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1871000/1871184.stm</a>

Corwin · 03-13-2002, 12:31 PM

From the article I can't tell if he's a closet creationist or just a politician. He seems to be avoiding taking a firm stand on the issue while leaning enough toward ID to placate any creationist voters.

Triple Six · 03-14-2002, 01:18 AM

What's stunning about this is that Blair nearly slipped up and gave a forthright opinion on something

For one of the most cynical opinion poll driven politicians in history that is rare. Blair is however a brilliant political operator and his undoubted skills in manipulating news, betraying allies when necessary and covering up harmful information have never seemed to conflict with his proclaimed christian values. Rather they seem to complement each other.

Automaton · 03-14-2002, 04:00 AM

It's only to be expected. Those in power will abuse it in any way possible, especially if it means obscuring truth and advocating ignorance.

never been there · 03-14-2002, 04:09 PM

I'm with Corwin and P.A., but take it one step further: it's not that he personally equivocates on the issue, but that he won't set a precedent by actually taking a stand on any issue that's part of someone else's agenda.

On matters of religion, particularly, he needs to avoid getting caught between the generally godless Labour supporters and the Muslims who certainly won't vote for the Tories who despise them, but might stay home on election day.

Muslims in some parts of the UK are sufficiently ghettoised that getting their votes wins you an easy seat. Rule #1 in first-past-the-post parliamentary systems is don't lose the easy seats. Once he commits on creationism, someone will ask: "what about controversy X?"

Leesifer · 03-15-2002, 04:49 AM

In a paper this morning there were two articles regarding Emmanuel College - both journalists think it is a good thing for both creation and evolution to be taught.

One in particular said "Evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it".

A quote from the former and the current head teachers went as follows:

"To teach children that they are nothing more than developed mutations who evolved from something akin to a monkey and that death is the end of everything is hardly going to engender within them a sense of purpose, self-worth and self-respect".

What a load of old twaddle!

Oolon Colluphid · 03-15-2002, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Leesifer:
In a paper this morning there were two articles regarding Emmanuel College - both journalists think it is a good thing for both creation and evolution to be taught.

One in particular said "Evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it".

Christ on a bike! Which papet Leesifer? I'll buy it on my way home, and I feel a letter coming on...

Quote:

A quote from the former and the current head teachers went as follows:

"To teach children that they are nothing more than developed mutations who evolved from something akin to a monkey

Since when did evolution deny people's humanity or dignity?!

Quote:

and that death is the end of everything

Since when did evolution have anything to say on that matter either? Here: I'm about as hardline an 'evolutionist' and atheist as you'll find. and I hereby say: let theists have their 'souls' if it keeps them happy. It matters not a jot to evolution.

The point of course is: To teach children that they are connected by evolution to the rest of the living world is to teach them the truth. What they decide to do with that truth is up to them. At least they'll be basing their decisions on fact, not fairytale.

Oolon

Leesifer · 03-15-2002, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oolon Colluphid:


Since when did evolution have anything to say on that matter either? Here: I'm about as hardline an 'evolutionist' and atheist as you'll find. and I hereby say: let theists have their 'souls' if it keeps them happy. It matters not a jot to evolution.

The point of course is: To teach children that they are connected by evolution to the rest of the living world is to teach them the truth. What they decide to do with that truth is up to them. At least they'll be basing their decisions on fact, not fairytale.

Oolon

Oolon, I couldn't agree more. The paper was The Daily Mail.

Oolon Colluphid · 03-15-2002, 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Leesifer:


Oolon, I couldn't agree more. The paper was The Daily Mail.

Figures. Thanks for that.

Oolon

bluefugue · 03-15-2002, 07:13 AM

It really annoys me when people complain that evolution suggests we are "similar to apes" or "similar to monkeys." We are similar to apes, tremendously similar to them, whether evolution be true or no. All you need is a pair of eyes to see that much. And at the same time all you need is a pair of eyes to see we are also very different from monkeys and the other great apes (last time I checked, chimpanzees weren't composing piano concertos, building rocket ships, and decoding their own genome). Nobody says it's insulting to call humans animals (as opposed to plants), or vertebrates, or omnivores, or eukaryotes, or chordates, or amniotes, or mammals. So why is it insulting to point out our similarity with apes? That makes no more sense than to say it's insulting to point out the similarities between a chimpanzee and a chameleon. Again, the similarities are abundantly clear, but nobody would claim that a chimp and a chameleon are equivalent. They're similar in some ways, yet different in others. Just like humans and other apes. Is this concept too subtle for people to grasp?

And for the eleven billionth time, whether evolution makes us feel "inferior" or whatever, has absolutely nothing to do with its merit as a science, and nothing to do with whether it should be taught in science classes! Hey, I've got an idea! Let's stop teaching history because it will set a bad example and make people think humans are forever doomed to have wars and social injustice!

Preaching to the choir, I know...

[ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: IesusDomini ]

03-15-2002, 07:13 AM	#10
bluefugue Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,427	It really annoys me when people complain that evolution suggests we are "similar to apes" or "similar to monkeys." We are similar to apes, tremendously similar to them, whether evolution be true or no. All you need is a pair of eyes to see that much. And at the same time all you need is a pair of eyes to see we are also very different from monkeys and the other great apes (last time I checked, chimpanzees weren't composing piano concertos, building rocket ships, and decoding their own genome). Nobody says it's insulting to call humans animals (as opposed to plants), or vertebrates, or omnivores, or eukaryotes, or chordates, or amniotes, or mammals. So why is it insulting to point out our similarity with apes? That makes no more sense than to say it's insulting to point out the similarities between a chimpanzee and a chameleon. Again, the similarities are abundantly clear, but nobody would claim that a chimp and a chameleon are equivalent. They're similar in some ways, yet different in others. Just like humans and other apes. Is this concept too subtle for people to grasp? And for the eleven billionth time, whether evolution makes us feel "inferior" or whatever, has absolutely nothing to do with its merit as a science, and nothing to do with whether it should be taught in science classes! Hey, I've got an idea! Let's stop teaching history because it will set a bad example and make people think humans are forever doomed to have wars and social injustice! Preaching to the choir, I know... [ March 15, 2002: Message edited by: IesusDomini ]</p>

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03-13-2002, 12:12 PM	#1
Pantera Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cambridge, England, but a Scot at heart Posts: 2,431	Blair a closet creationist? Just spotted this on the BBC website. Somebody please say it ain't so. <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1871000/1871184.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk_politics/newsid_1871000/1871184.stm</a>

03-13-2002, 12:31 PM	#2
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	From the article I can't tell if he's a closet creationist or just a politician. He seems to be avoiding taking a firm stand on the issue while leaning enough toward ID to placate any creationist voters.

03-14-2002, 01:18 AM	#3
Triple Six Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: formerly Lae, Papua New Guinea Posts: 1,867	What's stunning about this is that Blair nearly slipped up and gave a forthright opinion on something For one of the most cynical opinion poll driven politicians in history that is rare. Blair is however a brilliant political operator and his undoubted skills in manipulating news, betraying allies when necessary and covering up harmful information have never seemed to conflict with his proclaimed christian values. Rather they seem to complement each other.

03-14-2002, 04:00 AM	#4
Automaton Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 717	It's only to be expected. Those in power will abuse it in any way possible, especially if it means obscuring truth and advocating ignorance.

03-14-2002, 04:09 PM	#5
never been there Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Winnipeg, MB Posts: 2,144	I'm with Corwin and P.A., but take it one step further: it's not that he personally equivocates on the issue, but that he won't set a precedent by actually taking a stand on any issue that's part of someone else's agenda. On matters of religion, particularly, he needs to avoid getting caught between the generally godless Labour supporters and the Muslims who certainly won't vote for the Tories who despise them, but might stay home on election day. Muslims in some parts of the UK are sufficiently ghettoised that getting their votes wins you an easy seat. Rule #1 in first-past-the-post parliamentary systems is don't lose the easy seats. Once he commits on creationism, someone will ask: "what about controversy X?"

03-15-2002, 04:49 AM	#6
Leesifer Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: England Posts: 257	In a paper this morning there were two articles regarding Emmanuel College - both journalists think it is a good thing for both creation and evolution to be taught. One in particular said "Evolution is not a fact. It is a theory with holes in it". A quote from the former and the current head teachers went as follows: "To teach children that they are nothing more than developed mutations who evolved from something akin to a monkey and that death is the end of everything is hardly going to engender within them a sense of purpose, self-worth and self-respect". What a load of old twaddle!

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