Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ojuice5001 · 02-21-2002, 06:58 AM

Since the Israelis think the Torah is God's word, and that they have a covenant with God that continues to the present day, this must have an effect on their relations with the Palestinians. They must be more confident, uncompromising, etc., than they would be without these beliefs. Does anyone know the specifics about how the Torah affects the Israelis' attitude in their conflict with the Palestinians?

Marduk · 02-21-2002, 03:05 PM

A quick capsule review because I hate to type, Suposedly God promises Israel to Abraham Moses ET. Al. He orders them in Exodus to through out the native Caananites with extreme prejudice and take the Promised Land. Caananites are Samaritans (non-Jewish Semites) known today as Palestinians. The Torah spells out the boundaries of Israel. The six-day war in the 1960’s expanded Israel from what England & the UN gave them after WWII to the more Biblical boundaries. Several hundred thousand Palestinians being booted out of their homes did not go over well in the Muslim world.
It gets worse, in the 1990s archaeologists have been killed, artifacts destroyed in many places including inside the old Temple (which is now a sacred Muslim shrine) various areas are off limits to archaeological digs, because everyone wants to find evidense that this land was theirs thousands of years ago or because the Bible says so.

[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]

Toto · 02-21-2002, 03:19 PM

Most Isrealis are secular, and base their claim to the state of Israel on international treaties and their willingness to enforce them with military power. There are other anti-Zionist Jews in Israel who do not think that the state of Israel should have been established, because of some Biblical reason or another.

However, there is a minority of religious fundamentalist Israelis who want to reclaim the land that YHWH promised to them in the Bible. They have destabilized the situation by settling in land with largely Arab population, and forcing the Israeli government to protect them. They are generally recognized as a stumbling block to peace. Their settlements are financed in part by wealthy American Jews who want to reclaim their Biblical heritage. (One of them gets his money from a gambling casino near LA.)

Marduk · 02-21-2002, 03:32 PM

"There are other anti-Zionist Jews in Israel who do not think that the state of Israel should have been established, because of some Biblical reason or another."

They think it should have been done by our old friend "The Messiah"
Just as some Orthodox Jews want to rebuid the Temple and others claim the last Temple will be floated down from heaven by the big guy himself.

Jayhawker Soule · 02-22-2002, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
Caananites are Samaritans (non-Jewish Semites) known today as Palestinians. [ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]

Don't tell that to the Samaritans. See, for example: <a href="http://www.jewishgates.org/history/jewhis/samar.stm" target="_blank">This Brief Discussion</a>

Marduk · 02-22-2002, 05:04 AM

oops, maybe the word I was grouping for was Samarians. Not to be confused with Sumerian.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]

Jayhawker Soule · 02-22-2002, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by marduck:
oops, maybe the word I was grouping for was Samarians. Not to be confused with Sumerian.

[ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]

Yours is an intersesting reading of history, and I'd greatly appreciate learning of your source(s).

Best I can tell, a Samarian (not to be confused with Sumerian) would likely refer to a resident of Samaria - the city of Achab/Jezebel fame built by Achab's father, Amri. As for these Samarians/Samaritans being todays Palestinians, you might wish to reference the following:

<a href="http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/meaning.html" target="_blank">The History & Meaning of Palestine.</a> Specifically:

Quote:

The word itself derives from "Peleshet", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". The Philistines were mediterranean people originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They reached the southern coast of Israel in several waves. One group arrived in the pre-patriarchal period and settled south of Beersheba in Gerar where they came into conflict with Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael. Another group, coming from Crete after being repulsed from an attempted invasion of Egypt by Rameses III in 1194 BCE, seized the southern coastal area, where they founded five settlements (Gaza, Ascalon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gat). In the Persian and Greek periods, foreign settlers - chiefly from the Mediterranean islands - overran the Philistine districts. From the time of Herodotus, Greeks called the eastern coast of the Mediterranean "Syria Palaestina".

The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs. The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Greco-Roman "Palastina"; which is derived from the Peleshet, (root Pelesh) which was a general term meaning "dividers", "penetrators" or "invaders". This referred to the Philistine's invasion and conquest of the coast from the sea.

The use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab ethnic group is a modern political creation which has no basis in fact - and had never had any international or academic credibility before 1967.

Answerer · 02-22-2002, 09:35 PM

I think these whole thing about the ownership of Israel is crap man. The land don't belong to anyone in the first place. But Jews seem to regard Israel as though the land with their names written upon it. From historical view, Israel should belong to the canaanites in the first place, but too bad as they are wiped out by the Jews.

Marduk · 02-23-2002, 03:41 AM

"Yours is an intersesting reading of history, and I'd greatly appreciate learning of your source(s)."

The Samarians was from Isaac Asimoffs "Guide to the Bible" but that was published in 1969, maybe that info is out of date now.

Marduk · 02-23-2002, 03:55 AM

"The use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab ethnic group is a modern political creation which has no basis in fact - and had never had any international or academic credibility before 1967."

Now you are confusing me even more, my dad served in Egypt in WWII and told me he was in Palestine?? that was 1943? I'm not sure I get the connection to the Philistines who never were from Caanan. Thought we were talking about non Jews who live in Israel and the people held in the refuge camps called Palistinians??
In Bible days the non Jews in Israel were called Samarians, so the book said.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

02-21-2002, 06:58 AM	#1
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	The Torah and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict Since the Israelis think the Torah is God's word, and that they have a covenant with God that continues to the present day, this must have an effect on their relations with the Palestinians. They must be more confident, uncompromising, etc., than they would be without these beliefs. Does anyone know the specifics about how the Torah affects the Israelis' attitude in their conflict with the Palestinians?

02-21-2002, 03:05 PM	#2
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	A quick capsule review because I hate to type, Suposedly God promises Israel to Abraham Moses ET. Al. He orders them in Exodus to through out the native Caananites with extreme prejudice and take the Promised Land. Caananites are Samaritans (non-Jewish Semites) known today as Palestinians. The Torah spells out the boundaries of Israel. The six-day war in the 1960’s expanded Israel from what England & the UN gave them after WWII to the more Biblical boundaries. Several hundred thousand Palestinians being booted out of their homes did not go over well in the Muslim world. It gets worse, in the 1990s archaeologists have been killed, artifacts destroyed in many places including inside the old Temple (which is now a sacred Muslim shrine) various areas are off limits to archaeological digs, because everyone wants to find evidense that this land was theirs thousands of years ago or because the Bible says so. [ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

02-22-2002, 05:04 AM	#6
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	oops, maybe the word I was grouping for was Samarians. Not to be confused with Sumerian. <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> [ February 22, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

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02-21-2002, 03:19 PM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Most Isrealis are secular, and base their claim to the state of Israel on international treaties and their willingness to enforce them with military power. There are other anti-Zionist Jews in Israel who do not think that the state of Israel should have been established, because of some Biblical reason or another. However, there is a minority of religious fundamentalist Israelis who want to reclaim the land that YHWH promised to them in the Bible. They have destabilized the situation by settling in land with largely Arab population, and forcing the Israeli government to protect them. They are generally recognized as a stumbling block to peace. Their settlements are financed in part by wealthy American Jews who want to reclaim their Biblical heritage. (One of them gets his money from a gambling casino near LA.)

02-21-2002, 03:32 PM	#4
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"There are other anti-Zionist Jews in Israel who do not think that the state of Israel should have been established, because of some Biblical reason or another." They think it should have been done by our old friend "The Messiah" Just as some Orthodox Jews want to rebuid the Temple and others claim the last Temple will be floated down from heaven by the big guy himself.

02-22-2002, 09:35 PM	#8
Answerer Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Singapore Posts: 3,956	I think these whole thing about the ownership of Israel is crap man. The land don't belong to anyone in the first place. But Jews seem to regard Israel as though the land with their names written upon it. From historical view, Israel should belong to the canaanites in the first place, but too bad as they are wiped out by the Jews.

02-23-2002, 03:41 AM	#9
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Yours is an intersesting reading of history, and I'd greatly appreciate learning of your source(s)." The Samarians was from Isaac Asimoffs "Guide to the Bible" but that was published in 1969, maybe that info is out of date now.

02-23-2002, 03:55 AM	#10
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"The use of the term "Palestinian" for an Arab ethnic group is a modern political creation which has no basis in fact - and had never had any international or academic credibility before 1967." Now you are confusing me even more, my dad served in Egypt in WWII and told me he was in Palestine?? that was 1943? I'm not sure I get the connection to the Philistines who never were from Caanan. Thought we were talking about non Jews who live in Israel and the people held in the refuge camps called Palistinians?? In Bible days the non Jews in Israel were called Samarians, so the book said. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

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