Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sidewinder · 02-14-2002, 10:59 AM

The Christian religion claims that Jesus never committed a single sin in his entire life.
My simple question is how on earth could anyone possibly know this? The canonical Gospels contains sayings and incidents of a very brief period of his life. We know nothing about his life prior to his ministry, save for the virgin conception and one incident when he was a young boy.

In fact, with this incident when he was a young boy, it's debatable whether or not he sinned in this situation. He left his parents and didn't tell him where he was going. Most parents would consider this to be a wrong action (i.e. a sin.)

There's also an incident in the Gospel of John where Jesus tells someone he is not going up to Jerusalem for some festival but then he goes up to the festival. This was a lie, and if I know my Christianity, a lie is considered to be a sin.

MortalWombat · 02-14-2002, 11:38 AM

He told his disciples to steal a colt for him (actually, Mark and Luke say that he said to bring a colt, while Matthew says that he told them to bring an ass and a colt).

Matthew 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me.

Notice he didn't say to buy the colt and ass, and since they were tied up, it meant they belonged to someone.

Amen-Moses · 02-14-2002, 11:43 AM

I doubt very much if the fig tree was just growing wild either and then there's the destruction of the pigs and illegal wine production without a licence. Definitely not sinless.

Amen-Moses

frostymama · 02-14-2002, 12:29 PM

He was a big ole' brat in some of the apochryphal gospels. I know that they aren't really reliable texts, but it does paint an entirely different picture of Jesus as a child.

<a href="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html" target="_blank">http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html</a>

If I remember corectly in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas a 5 year old jesus is supposed to make a mans arm wither after he trashes the mud puddle Jesus was playing in. It also says he cursed a child (an the kid died) after he accidently ran into Jesus.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: frostymama ]</p>

-DM- · 02-14-2002, 01:11 PM

1) One cannot possibly know with certainty what never happened in the life of another person.
2) The canonical Gospels themselves relate events which, even by his own standards, would make Jesus a sinner. See: <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/jesus_was_hypocrite.html" target="_blank">Jesus Was A Hypocrite</a>.

--Don--

-DM- · 02-14-2002, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by frostymama:
He was a big ole' brat in some of the apochryphal gospels. I know that the aren't really reliable texts, but it does paint an entirely different picture of Jesus as a child.

I have a collection of these extra-canonical stories about the child Jesus. And yes, he was a bratty kid according to some of those stories. For example, he once had to be slapped across the face by one of his Rabbi teachers for being essentially a smart aleck.

Another story has the parents of all of the village children hiding their kids from the child Jesus because of past experience. Jesus comes along (the scene is a community picnic), asks where the other children are (knowing full well in his omniscience, of course, they have been hidden in the ovens by their parents). The parents respond that the kids are off in the woods playing. Jesus then asks what is in the ovens. The parents respond that pigs waiting to be roasted are in the ovens (pigs? -- very strange for a bunch of Jews). Jesus says, "Very well, let it be." The kids are turned into pigs.

<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0803753799/InternetInfidelsA/104-0464130-3657563" target="_blank">The Child Jesus</a> by Adey Horton

--Don--

[Corrected typo. --Don--]

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Don Morgan ]</p>

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 01:31 PM

Jesus on several occasions violated Hebrew law (e.g. rules regarding observing the sabbath). Isn't that defined in the OT as sin? He was good about coming up with excuses for his actions, though.

Grumpy · 02-14-2002, 03:18 PM

For a while, I thought Mark 2:23 depicted Jesus as a thief, stealing grain from someone else's field. (KJV calls them "corn fields" -- even though corn/maize was a relatively new arrival from the New World in King James' time.) But apparently this type of theft is okay, according to Deuteronomy 23:25.

Quote:

When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn.

In other words, it's only theft if you use a sickle. Of course, this "corn plucking" episode occurs on the Sabbath. So if it's okay for God to order the death of the man picking up sticks in Numbers 15, then it was okay for the Pharisees to want to kill Jesus (Mark 3:6).

GunnerJ · 02-14-2002, 05:41 PM

Quote:

KJV calls them "corn fields" -- even though corn/maize was a relatively new arrival from the New World in King James' time.)

Just a pedantic note, what we today call grain was, before commerce between the Old and New worlds was common, called "corn" in English-speaking Europe. LSS, corn is an old word for grain.

excreationist · 02-14-2002, 05:52 PM

Here's some statistics:
<a href="http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PageCategory.asp#Beliefs" target="_blank">Barna Research - Beliefs of Born Agains</a>:

Quote:

[In Barna Research Group studies, born again Christians are not defined on the basis of characterizing themselves as "born again" but based upon their answers to two questions. The first is "have you ever made a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in your life today?" If the respondent says "yes," then they are asked a follow-up question about life after death. One of the seven perspectives a respondent may choose is "when I die, I will go to Heaven because I have confessed my sins and have accepted Jesus Christ as my savior." Individuals who answer "yes" to the first question and select this statement as their belief about their own salvation are then categorized as "born again."]

- 28% of born agains agree that �while he lived on earth, Jesus committed sins, like other people,� compared to over half (52%) of non-Christians. (2001)

<a href="http://www.barna.org/cgi-bin/PageCategory.asp#AmericansbeliefsaboutthelifeofJes us" target="_blank">Barna Research - Americans� beliefs about the life of Jesus</a>:

Quote:

- More than two out of every five adults (43%) believe that Jesus Christ lived on earth He committed sins.(2001)
- Conversely, 41% of Americans believe that Jesus lived a sinless life on earth. (2001)
- Baptists (63%), born again Christians (62%), Bible readers (59%), Republicans (56%, non-mainline attenders (55%), church attenders (54%), and those living in the South (47%) are segments of the population more likely than average to believe that Jesus lived a sinless life. (2001)
- Catholics are less likely than adults nationwide to believe that Jesus lived without sin (33% of Catholics versus 41% of U.S. adults). (2001)

02-14-2002, 10:59 AM	#1
sidewinder Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: omnipresent Posts: 234	Was Jesus Sinless? The Christian religion claims that Jesus never committed a single sin in his entire life. My simple question is how on earth could anyone possibly know this? The canonical Gospels contains sayings and incidents of a very brief period of his life. We know nothing about his life prior to his ministry, save for the virgin conception and one incident when he was a young boy. In fact, with this incident when he was a young boy, it's debatable whether or not he sinned in this situation. He left his parents and didn't tell him where he was going. Most parents would consider this to be a wrong action (i.e. a sin.) There's also an incident in the Gospel of John where Jesus tells someone he is not going up to Jerusalem for some festival but then he goes up to the festival. This was a lie, and if I know my Christianity, a lie is considered to be a sin.

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02-14-2002, 11:38 AM	#2
MortalWombat Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: St Louis area Posts: 3,458	He told his disciples to steal a colt for him (actually, Mark and Luke say that he said to bring a colt, while Matthew says that he told them to bring an ass and a colt). Matthew 21:2 Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me. Notice he didn't say to buy the colt and ass, and since they were tied up, it meant they belonged to someone.

02-14-2002, 11:43 AM	#3
Amen-Moses Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Portsmouth, England Posts: 4,652	I doubt very much if the fig tree was just growing wild either and then there's the destruction of the pigs and illegal wine production without a licence. Definitely not sinless. Amen-Moses

02-14-2002, 12:29 PM	#4
frostymama Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Georgia USA Posts: 927	He was a big ole' brat in some of the apochryphal gospels. I know that they aren't really reliable texts, but it does paint an entirely different picture of Jesus as a child. <a href="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html" target="_blank">http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/infancythomas.html</a> If I remember corectly in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas a 5 year old jesus is supposed to make a mans arm wither after he trashes the mud puddle Jesus was playing in. It also says he cursed a child (an the kid died) after he accidently ran into Jesus. [ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: frostymama ]</p>

02-14-2002, 01:11 PM	#5
-DM- Honorary Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: West Coast Posts: 5,714	1) One cannot possibly know with certainty what never happened in the life of another person. 2) The canonical Gospels themselves relate events which, even by his own standards, would make Jesus a sinner. See: <a href="http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/jesus_was_hypocrite.html" target="_blank">Jesus Was A Hypocrite</a>. --Don--

02-14-2002, 01:31 PM	#7
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Jesus on several occasions violated Hebrew law (e.g. rules regarding observing the sabbath). Isn't that defined in the OT as sin? He was good about coming up with excuses for his actions, though.

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