Odemus

Why do you care so passionately about your disbelief?It seems to me that if one is going to live life absent from a belief in God, one wouldn't pay much attention to the the fact that one was doing so.I mean, if all there is to life is what we can see and touch and measure, then what does this debate matter?You can't possibly be engaging theists because you believe atheism will make the world a better place, because if life doesn't have a higher purpose, 'better' doesn't exist either.

If you are right and God doesn't exist, that is if you die and simply cease to be, the only true conclusion about life is that it is meaningless.You might argue that your philosophy allows for life to hold value but in the final analysis you will be dead and unable to care regardless, and after your death the world will go on as if you were never here to begin with.

How is it that your take on the universe can hold any more value than mine?If you're right, your epitaph will congratulate you for not having been superstitious and mine will note that I lead a life devoted to the unverifiable.

So my question is, what's the point?

99Percent

The point is to be happy.

Believing in the afterlife degrades the value of this and only life. Its sad not to say pathetic to see fervent believers waste their precious life in useless prayers and sometimes painful rituals believing that the reward will come in the nonexistent afterlife.

If you are going to be good it is because it will be good for you in this life.

Life is not meaningless while you are alive which is the only time that matters anyway. Its like losing the excitement of a game because you know that the game is going to end anyway. Its like watching a movie and not enjoying it because you know that it will end in a couple of hours anyway. Fact is, is that the game and the movie must end in the first place for them to have any value to begin with!

Autonemesis

Could you please explain that?

What's the point if God exists? If I am saved, why hang around this corrupt Earth for one more second? What difference does it make if I spend 2 seconds or 2 decades on Earth, if I have an eternity in Heaven awaiting me? Once you're saved, might as well go straight to your reward.

What's the point of anything unless you or I decide that there ought to be a point, or decide to recognize a point, however you want to phrase it? Why did you seek God if you didn't first decide that there needed to be a point? Oh look - what a coincidence! God is there to give things a point!

Does that make any sense to you?

Odemus

All humans are driven by a desire to be happy or at least happier, even someone who commits suicide does so from the belief that death is a preferrable state to life.

Degrades how?

What does it mean to waste life if we all end up in a state of nonexistence?How is your life better spent?Why would you allow the beliefs of those you disagree with sadden you?

What is good?

Where is the meaning?Some find meaning in genocide, others in pointless internet debates, still other in a belief that they are not their own, but belong to a creator. Who has the most meaning and why?

What is their value?What value do the ancient Greek olympics hold for you?What will they hold for you after you are dead and no longer exist?

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>

Odemus

Well from what I gather, most athiests would like all forms of theism eradicated because a world without superstition is 'better'.If there is no ultimate meaning to life how do you define 'better'?If you really want to put an end to theism why not just kill the %90 of the world population that holds a belief in God?


If there is nothing after death, what is the point of living?I might as well go straight into nonexistence. Which of our two declarative statements holds more value and why?

How does declaring a point to be valid lend a point meaning?

Or in my reasoning there is a point because God exists, but then that's not the point.

Well, you didn't answer my question. What's the point?

Denshuu

Just because life ends does _not_ mean that life is meaningless, as you seem to assert. Life can be spent making yourself and others happy in a myriad of ways, but keeping yourself secluded and praying to a being that may or may not exist (read: basically talking to yourself) is probably not the most rewarding experience that can be brought out of life. For example, in the years to come, I know that my life will end. Does that mean that the time I get to spend with my friends and loved ones is somehow less effective in making me hapy, or that I love them any less simply by knowing that one day I'll be gone? No. Why? Because I've come to accept the fact that all things must someday end, and that the fact they end have absolutely no baring on whether or not they are helpful in the meaning of my life: happiness.

99Percent was speaking of common (current) activities that lead us to happiness in life, not ancient Greek olympics.

Splat

Originally posted by Odemus:
<strong>Why do you care so passionately about your disbelief?It seems to me that if one is going to live life absent from a belief in God, one wouldn't pay much attention to the the fact that one was doing so.I mean, if all there is to life is what we can see and touch and measure, then what does this debate matter?</strong>

Can't speak for anybody else, but I suspect that if the irrationality, bigotry, hypocrisy (etc. etc. etc.) of believers didn't touch my life in any way, I probably wouldn't give it a second thought.

<strong>You can't possibly be engaging theists because you believe atheism will make the world a better place, because if life doesn't have a higher purpose, 'better' doesn't exist either.</strong>

Sure we can. My house is a better place with an indoor toilet and heat in the winter than it would be without them. Belief in a higher purpose has nothing to do with either.

No doubt such belief keeps a lot of people more sober and honest than they might be otherwise, but I can't help but believe that adherence to atheism's one commandment ("Think!") would lead to a better world than the one that 10,000+ years of supserstition has gave us.

<strong>If you are right and God doesn't exist, that is if you die and simply cease to be, the only true conclusion about life is that it is meaningless.</strong>

Only if you set god up as the sole source of meaning in life. We create meaning. Always have, always will.

<strong>You might argue that your philosophy allows for life to hold value but in the final analysis you will be dead and unable to care regardless, and after your death the world will go on as if you were never here to begin with.</strong>

I might if I were you, or if I were hallucinating. In the end, I'll be dead and unable to care, but the world is different than it would have been if I'd never been here at all (and always will be--same for you). If I leave it in better shape (greener, happier, less fearful, smarter, more amusing...the possibilities are endless) than I found it, I'll die happy.

<strong>How is it that your take on the universe can hold any more value than mine?</strong>

I suspect it's because mine doesn't involve imaginary friends, but that's just a guess. Why do you think my take on the universe can hold more value than yours?

<strong>If you're right, your epitaph will congratulate you for not having been superstitious and mine will note that I lead a life devoted to the unverifiable.</strong>

And if you're right, your epitaph will read that you got to go to heaven, and mine (together with the other 90% of all humans who have ever lived and died without the benefit of having lead lives devoted to your particular version of the unverifiable) will note that we've gone to eternal suffering in hell.

<strong>So my question is, what's the point?</strong>

Should be clear by now.

David Gould

I thought that the point of debating with Christians was so that we could convert them all and establish the Evil Atheistic Empire (tm) bwah ha ha?

Or have I been mislead by our Atheistic Overlords?

I keep missing the 'How To Take Over The World' briefings, as I find the Orgiastic Drug Fests to be much more informative.

Can someone send me a brief email reminding me of when I have to seize the means of production again?

Odemus

Because life ends, even my assertion that life is meaningless is meaningless.

If the pursuit of happiness is merely a function of the natural order of things, how is that more or less meaningful than say, anything else in the plant or animal kingdom which has survival as it's primary function?Why not find meaning in killing others in a myriad of ways?Some people do.Do they hold less meaningful lives than you?Why or why not?

How do you measure reward?

Perhaps, even months, or days.Heck, you might not wake up tomorrow.

What does your happiness matter?How can you contrast the sense of well being and happiness derived from your understanding of the world with mine?How can you quantify the value of any philosophy?

I know.

[ July 11, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>

Doubting Didymus

What we care about is truth. It really doesn't matter if believing in an afterlife makes you feel better, at the end of the life its either true or it isn't. If its true, there must be a way of establishing whether or not it is true. If you consider this to be the issue, welcome to I.I. discussion boards! This is the perfect place to discuss claims to supernatural truth.

Now. If not, and if your claim is that regardless of truth, atheism is pointless. I want you to listen very carefully.

Having no afterlife does not mean there is no higher purpose. It does not mean that life has no meaning. That is something you have decided to believe for yourself.

Theists frequently make these assertions. The fact is they are just untrue. How can you explain atheists that love life, if our belief implies there is no point? Quite simply, you are just plain wrong when you say "I might as well go straight into nonexistence" because something that has no point at its end can still have a point in its middle.

If you want to be warm, you light a fire. But a fire will soon be cold ash and charred wood, so whats the point? The point is that it is warm while it burns, and it does not need to burn forever and ever and ever to give warmth, both for the fires own sake and for the comfort and happiness of others.

To turn the argument on its head and throw the ball back into your court and also to mix my metaphors, What is the point of staying in this life if paradise awaits you? (this is not rhetorical, please answer sincerely)