luvluv

I don't really understand how you guys can argue over morality. All a guy has to do is say I don't share your values. After that it's pretty much pointless to go on. I don't understand why you guys try to convince each other one way or the other on the whole vegetarian thing. I thought the whole point of your way of thinking was to let people do whatever it is they want and to leave them alone about it. I don't see how your philosophy can even entail moral arguments for or against anything. If people don't share your values, why try to convince them that anything is "right" or "wrong"?

DarkDruid

Oh, crikey. If you knew much about "us" you'd realize that there isn't much that holds "us" together besides our mutual disbelief in any deity. You are making a huge mistake in assuming that because we all disbelieve in any deities, we must all think alike. I'm sure someone much more eloquent than I shall come along and nail your rather rude post to the floor, so until then this is all I have to say.

tronvillain

That morality is subjective does not entail tolerance of the values of others. We might tolerate some of the values of others, but it is not a requirement of subjective morality.

Pomp

luvluv,

First of all, I'd like to pointout that all of us are not subjectivists here.

I don't really understand how you guys can argue over morality. All a guy has to do is say I don't share your values. After that it's pretty much pointless to go on.

You're missing the key point. We (subjectivists) don't argue that others ought to share our values. We argue that others' values might be better served by cooperating with us.

I don't understand why you guys try to convince each other one way or the other on the whole vegetarian thing.

The two persons who originated the vegetarian threads were, to the best of my knowledge, moral objectivists.

I thought the whole point of your way of thinking was to let people do whatever it is they want and to leave them alone about it.

No, you don't understand it yet. Subjectivists don't think that they ought to leave everyone else alone to do whatever thay want. We allow others to think whatever they want, but we are perfectly willing to constrain their actions when our values are threatened by those actions.

I don't see how your philosophy can even entail moral arguments for or against anything. If people don't share your values, why try to convince them that anything is "right" or "wrong"?

Again, you're missing the boat. I don't care about convincing you that it is "wrong" to steal from me. I care about negotiating a no-stealing pact with you because it's more efficient than watching my possessions 24 hours a day to make sure you don't steal them.

Viti

luvluv...your "us and them" attitude seems a bit hostile, is there something about moral subjectivists that bothers you? I am not trying to be a smart ass, I am just curious as to the reason for the depth of feeling on this topic.

Jayhawker Soule

Once again you cometh to this forum solely to pisseth against its wall with your rhetoric.

Actual, given the surreal and pervasive cruelty of the Bible, I don't really understand how you guys can even discuss morality.

Alonzo Fyfe

If you do not know how somebody can do something, then watch them do it, and learn. Read through the discussions on objective/subjective morality.

There are a lot of different types of subjectivism. Some of them, admittedly, have the problems you identify here. Others do not.

Your mistake is assuming that all subjectivisms share the properties you ascribe to them.

Vorkosigan

Reasonable, Luvluv has often shown an admirable willingness to engage.

I don't really understand how you guys can argue over morality. All a guy has to do is say I don't share your values. After that it's pretty much pointless to go on.

There are several reasons one might want to go on:

1) The creation of mutual understanding may lead to an enlargement of tolerance;

2) a genuinely open discussant might well convert to one's point of view;

3) lurkers also read the posts;

4) I often clarify my thinking through engagement with others, and learn new things;

5) if the other discussant is an attractive member of the opposite sex....better not go there, I'm a happily married man. <sound of collar being straightened> Anyway, MadKally, Lianali and Queen of Swords are already atheists...

6) I might boost my already staggeringly inflated ego with another crushing victory over the forces of evil. hehehehe!

And so on.

Michael

Malaclypse the Younger

I am passionately dedicated to the pursuit of truth in all forms. If it is true that morality is objective, I want to know that. If it is true that morality is subjective, I want to know that too.

I also want to fulfill my values in a society. Doing so requires that I communicate my values to others; if they do not know what I value, how can we negotiate on our mutual fulfillment?

I also wish, to some extent, to impose my values on others. If someone has a value in fundamental conflict with mine, then I want them to change their value, or at least not try to fulfill it. There are three ways to do this:

• Convince them that their value contradicts another, more important value that we both share
• Convince them that other people condemn their value
• Coerce them to abandon the fulfillment of that value

For instance, I try to convince people that the value of antihomosexuality is in contradiction to the value of personal freedom. I try to convince people that the value of theonomy is widely condemned. And I advocate coercing teachers and school administrators to not discuss religion in public schools.

Hobbs

I assume you mean not to proselytize a religion, rather than not to discuss religion as a subject.

This isn't just a quibble: the "put God back in school" types tend to play on this ambiguity of 'teaching' religion as either 'teaching about' or 'preaching' it. And the "no preaching in school" crowd I think actually does too often go to the extreme of "don't even mention the subject." That extreme gives legitimate ammunition to the "put God back in school" types to shoot for their illegitimate goal.