Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Egoinos · 04-07-2003, 06:14 PM

Canaanite more likely, Magus.

Nostalgic Pushhead · 04-08-2003, 01:08 AM

Quote:

As I said, myths are not historically true, or attempts to be historically true. But the sacred stories of the Jews are quite different; they are attempts to be historically true. Not the stuff that happens before Abraham, of course--but the rest is.

I think ancient myths are as valid attempts as historical truth as Jewish myth.
What claim did the Jews make about their god that any other religion didn't?

Random info on Roman religion...

Quote:

The Religio Romana began as the simple earth-based faith of the farmers of the village of Rome. Influenced by their Etruscan (and later Greek) neighbors, the Romans developed a complex State Religion that emphasised duty to the Gods (pietas) and serving them through exactly prescribed rituals.

From here.

bagong · 04-08-2003, 03:27 AM

Well, I don't know how seriously the Romans took the Aenied as history (or even whether the Aenied reflects popular Roman myths, or simply Virgil's own imagination - a Roman Lord of the Rings ), but in that work you definitely have the gods intervening in human history. Venus and Jupiter guide Aeneus from Troy to Italy to found Rome (or more acurately the Roman royal line), Juno tries to prevent it.

Then of course you have the Romulus and Remus myth, where Mars plays a key role as father of the twins, and as the guiding force behind the wolf (an animal sacred to him).

So I would say Roman mythology makes roughly the same type of claims as Hebrew mythology does: the gods leading the Trojans to Latium is quite similar to Yahweh leading the Hebrews to Canaan.

mike_decock · 04-08-2003, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Jewish history has nothing to do with Roman/Greek religions, and I take offense to the implication.

What the???

Magus, you seem to seeking to be offended or something. We were discussing how Jewish Religion & History compares to Roman Religion & History. For the Jews, they seem to be more closely intertwined than they were to Romans.

-Mike...

Bobzammel · 04-08-2003, 07:48 AM

Here's an interesting thingy--in the Mesha Stele--

"As for Omri, King of Israel, he humbled Moab many days, for Chemosh was angry at his land.

Here The Moabite king states that the reason Omri was attacking Moab was related to the displeasure of the God Chemosh at his land. Like in many books of the bible, invasion=divine anger.
The same element can be found in books such as the works of Homer, in which historical events(Such as Troy) are greatly exaggerated and part of the drama of the Gods.
I think events such as the Jewish war and the destruction of Vesuvius were also said by some early Christians to be "the work of God". The Jewish war is elluded to in the bible, in fact. The latter is strange, since there is some evidence of a small church in the ruins of the two cities.

Volker.Doormann · 04-08-2003, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001
Now, my theological ideas are quite dependent on Yahweh being essentially the same kind of god as others--for instance, those of the Romans.

I see Jupiter as being far from inactive in history. But he works in different ways--he works through either kings and priests, or random events.

Jupiter is the king of the Roman gods. Not YHWH is the Hebrew equivalent 'god', it is Melchizedek.

Melchizedek was also 'King'. He was King of Salem {shaw-lame = perfect, complete, peaceable} which is a spiritual place, no physical place.

Melchizedek means �The King {meh'-lek} of righteousness {tseh'-dek}�. Jupiter is known in Hebrew as Zedek, 'The righteous one' and the attributes of planet Jupiter in astrology are righteousness, peace and perfection since ever.

� Melchizedek king of Salem � he was the minister of the most high God {El} ."

Volker

Ojuice5001 · 04-08-2003, 10:28 AM

Bagong,

I agree with you about the story of Romulus and Remus. That legend is about Jupiter and Mars using Romulus to found the city of Rome; it has no real disadvantage over the legend of Yahweh using Abraham to found Israel. (Unless you think it's necessary to believe that Romulus and Remus were raised by a wolf, and I don't.) Genesis was probably not written soon after Abraham; the gap is probably one of many centuries.

But Virgil's Anaeid seems pretty clearly a specimen of historical fiction. Troy fell no later than the fourth century BCE, while Virgil lived in the first century BCE. That's a large chronological gap. That kind of gap is not always found with regard to the books of the Bible.

I have always considered the stories of Romulus and Abraham to be on a level with each other; both are true if you accept supernaturalism, and both are false if you don't. But I don't find that wholly satisfying, since what I need is confirmation that Roman religion in general is as historical as Jewish religion in general.

Ojuice5001 · 04-08-2003, 06:31 PM

I think I've figured out the reason why Yahweh was more active in history than Jupiter. Basically, it's this.

Besides the Abrahamic religions, which gods were most active in their cultures' history? Other Middle Eastern cultures, especially Babylon and Egypt. And Yahweh's history of this kind of intervention doesn't hold any weight, you notice, outside the Middle East. I don't see him performing miracles here in America. It's not the power of Yahweh that makes him distinctive, it's the power of his region.

In fact, I'm thinking that as you approach the Middle East geographically, the influence of the gods increases. Not that there are modern miracles in the Middle East--I think it's moderately unlikely that there were any ancient ones, or more than a few. Nevertheless, there does seem to be a correlation between closeness to the Middle East, and religiosity.

Sorry if that sounds farfetched, but I think of it as much less farfetched than either atheism or Christianity.

philechat · 04-08-2003, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001
Bagong,

But Virgil's Anaeid seems pretty clearly a specimen of historical fiction. Troy fell no later than the fourth century BCE, while Virgil lived in the first century BCE. That's a large chronological gap. That kind of gap is not always found with regard to the books of the Bible.

Just a fact: the Mycenean civilization in the Bronze Age (where the Iliad and Odyssey supposed to be set in) probably ended much earlier than 4BCE. Most historians dated the Trojan War to be no later than 12 BCE, followed by 500 years of geometric (dark) age before the florish of classical civilization. Therefore ancient Pylos (which is commonly refered as Troy) was destroyed much earlier than your dating.

Clara Listensprechen · 04-09-2003, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike_decock
I don't know of any primary sources that reveal the Roman Gods, weren't they mostly Greek in origin?

Hardly. Romans and Greeks had separately developed systems until such time as the Greeks came under the Roman Empire. Despite what a lot of Christians would have you believe, Romans were rather indifferent to the religious beliefs of whomever they conquered...and they were particularly compatable to the Greek system, and at some point they, under Empire rule, became intermingled. Upon subsequent Norse invasions, so did Norse mythology, for that matter.

Romans didn't persecute Christians because of their religion, they persecuted Christians because they saw 'em as a political threat. Jewish court argument v. Jesus were built on this premise, and the Roman court was convinced.

Quote:

Why only the past 1600 years? Why not trace back to the Sumerian Gods of 6,000 years ago?

-Mike...

Oh, but via the OT there is that trace. Abraham was just such a pagan, only Amorite. He was of Amorite/Hittite heritage. The Hebrew of the name Jerusalem is of pagan extraction...Yerushalaim...of Canaanite root Urushalim, refers to the god Shalem as founder of that city.

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04-07-2003, 06:14 PM	#11
Egoinos Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 423	Canaanite more likely, Magus.

04-08-2003, 03:27 AM	#13
bagong Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 85	Well, I don't know how seriously the Romans took the Aenied as history (or even whether the Aenied reflects popular Roman myths, or simply Virgil's own imagination - a Roman Lord of the Rings ), but in that work you definitely have the gods intervening in human history. Venus and Jupiter guide Aeneus from Troy to Italy to found Rome (or more acurately the Roman royal line), Juno tries to prevent it. Then of course you have the Romulus and Remus myth, where Mars plays a key role as father of the twins, and as the guiding force behind the wolf (an animal sacred to him). So I would say Roman mythology makes roughly the same type of claims as Hebrew mythology does: the gods leading the Trojans to Latium is quite similar to Yahweh leading the Hebrews to Canaan.

04-08-2003, 07:48 AM	#15
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Here's an interesting thingy--in the Mesha Stele-- "As for Omri, King of Israel, he humbled Moab many days, for Chemosh was angry at his land. Here The Moabite king states that the reason Omri was attacking Moab was related to the displeasure of the God Chemosh at his land. Like in many books of the bible, invasion=divine anger. The same element can be found in books such as the works of Homer, in which historical events(Such as Troy) are greatly exaggerated and part of the drama of the Gods. I think events such as the Jewish war and the destruction of Vesuvius were also said by some early Christians to be "the work of God". The Jewish war is elluded to in the bible, in fact. The latter is strange, since there is some evidence of a small church in the ruins of the two cities.

04-08-2003, 10:28 AM	#17
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Bagong, I agree with you about the story of Romulus and Remus. That legend is about Jupiter and Mars using Romulus to found the city of Rome; it has no real disadvantage over the legend of Yahweh using Abraham to found Israel. (Unless you think it's necessary to believe that Romulus and Remus were raised by a wolf, and I don't.) Genesis was probably not written soon after Abraham; the gap is probably one of many centuries. But Virgil's Anaeid seems pretty clearly a specimen of historical fiction. Troy fell no later than the fourth century BCE, while Virgil lived in the first century BCE. That's a large chronological gap. That kind of gap is not always found with regard to the books of the Bible. I have always considered the stories of Romulus and Abraham to be on a level with each other; both are true if you accept supernaturalism, and both are false if you don't. But I don't find that wholly satisfying, since what I need is confirmation that Roman religion in general is as historical as Jewish religion in general.

04-08-2003, 06:31 PM	#18
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	I think I've figured out the reason why Yahweh was more active in history than Jupiter. Basically, it's this. Besides the Abrahamic religions, which gods were most active in their cultures' history? Other Middle Eastern cultures, especially Babylon and Egypt. And Yahweh's history of this kind of intervention doesn't hold any weight, you notice, outside the Middle East. I don't see him performing miracles here in America. It's not the power of Yahweh that makes him distinctive, it's the power of his region. In fact, I'm thinking that as you approach the Middle East geographically, the influence of the gods increases. Not that there are modern miracles in the Middle East--I think it's moderately unlikely that there were any ancient ones, or more than a few. Nevertheless, there does seem to be a correlation between closeness to the Middle East, and religiosity. Sorry if that sounds farfetched, but I think of it as much less farfetched than either atheism or Christianity.

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