John Page

I didn't say I understood them properly!
I refuse to believe myself. And you. Everybody is lying to me. Nobody knows what the truth is. Anybody seen a god around here we can ask in this existential crisis. Christ! Where's a god when you really need one.

Truth is relative. All is pomo peace now.
No. A true truth delivery system? Refine? In relation to what? System S?
Cheers, John

Tristan Scott

The great Greek sophist Protagoras believed that truth was subjective. I would have loved to have read his book, Truth , but unfortunately it burned up in the great fire that destroyed the Library of Alexandria. (Would it be true if I said that was the greatest tragedy to befall mankind?) Fortunately Plato read it and has Socrates talk about it a great deal in Euthydemus, Theaetetus and of course Protagoras. Protagoras is best known for his Man-measure Statement, a definitive relativist statement that claims that "man is the measure of all things." ( Temperature is often used when discussing Protagoras. )

For example we could say that Joe and Moe are in a room and Joe says "it's hot in here," while Moe says "it's cold in here." Which is telling the truth? Both? Niether? Moe could be from Arizona and it might feel cold to him, while Joe might be from Alaska, so it would feel hot to him.

Plato/Socrates tried to stay neutral in the dialogues, but they are interesting in that they present good arguments that are germain to this thread.

Keith Russell

Joe's statement does not contradict Moe's.

Both of their statements can be right at the same time.

K

John Page

I love this stuff! Surely his statement was only relative to his POV.

Tristan Scott

Duh. What else could a definitive relativist statement be?

sophie

This Joe and Moe epsoide is a real canidate for modal truth. Joe together with Moe form a sort of truth which is not symmetric in relation to the reality they both have faced.

John Page

But if Joe were Moe and Moe were Joe........

Tazz10m

I haven't changed my tune at all... rather, as i previously stated, i think the dictionary does clearly support my view. But, as i also stated, (now put into other words...) i think the dictionary has its flaws, just like everything else "man" has made, and is open for not only for interpretation, but revision as well.

truth, n., pl. truths. 1. the true or actual state of a matter: to tell the truth. 2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: to check the truth of a statement 3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like: mathematical truths. 4. the state or character of being true. 5. actuality or actual existence. 6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude. 7. honesty; integrity; truthfullness. 8. (often cap.) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and transcending perceived experience. 9. agreement with a standard or original. 10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment. 11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy. ---Idiom. 12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually. [bef. 900; ME treuthe, OE treowth. See TRUE, -TH]

As can clearly seen here, the word "accepted" could easily be taken out of the originally intended semantical context...(whatever that actually is).

Oh, and yes, i'm sure my underwear is showing...

yguy

The statements by Moe and Joe are at face value too inexact to be able to say whether they are true or not. What Joe is actually saying is that he feels cold, while Moe is saying he feels hot. Both are true and there is no contradiction.

Tristan Scott

Fine. Why don't you change it so that Moe and Joe each said "it's 76 degrees in here."

I think you need to try to keep your eye on the ball.

Don't use temperature. Try using beauty or justice. Joe says that Betty is the most beautiful girl he has ever seen, while Moe says he thinks Betty is homely.

Or how about, Joe says "it tastes great", while Moe says "it's less filling."