Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Stephen T-B · 02-12-2003, 04:13 AM

Brain picking here (mine�s picked clean...)

Betrayal - is it ever moral?

Is it ever ethical?

dangin · 02-12-2003, 06:17 AM

certainly.

dangin · 02-12-2003, 06:27 AM

OK, I can't leave it at that. I work in an office that uses video conferencing equipment to connect patients and doctors over great distances so that rural folks can have access to specialists without driving. A coworker, planned on leaving the office and starting a "for profit" (we are nonprofit) telemedicine network to compete with ours. He tried to get some of the technical people to join him in his endeavor. He got ratted out (betrayed) to the bosses, and they busted him for conflict of interest. He still has his job, he is being watched to make sure he isn't mucking about on the state's dime.

He was betrayed by his coworkers. But, he is notoriously half assed, he was trying to take both doctors and patients away from an established, well run system, and do it on his own. This would have at the very least cost patients quality of care. Also, when we have a doctor leave, we have 20 more of that specialist ready to take on the patients. If he had his only doctor leave, he would have had patients with no care. (some of which are cancer patients)

I think that stopping him when they did, prevented a terminal patient in the future from getting dicked around. Also, as soon as he started his network, we would have called all his sites, and informed them of our services (which include 30 specialties) so that when he dropped the ball, we would have simply taken on his patient load. Thus we cut off a potential source of new patients for ourselves, and prevented him (and his young family) from suffering through a business bankruptcy. (which would have been inevitable). Weighing in all the factors, I think betraying him, actually helped him, whether he realizes it or not.

avalanche:ix · 02-12-2003, 08:20 AM

We're humans, that means we're the lowest scumbags in the universe. we cheat, we lie, we steal, we kill, and we betray. since morality is subjective, betrayal can be moral.

if given the chance, i would betray people if the benefits were great enough. anybody who wouldn't, is evolutionary inferior.

Stephen T-B · 02-12-2003, 09:26 AM

just wondering - do you have any defining marks, avalanche:ix?
Something obvious which I can spot at a distance, perhaps?

avalanche:ix · 02-12-2003, 11:00 AM

i'm tall and i...oh wait, you were being sarcastic.

The AntiChris · 02-12-2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by avalanche:ix

if given the chance, i would betray people if the benefits were great enough. anybody who wouldn't, is evolutionary inferior.

Define "evolutionary inferior".

Chris

Sarpedon · 02-12-2003, 02:07 PM

Item 11 on my code of ethics is a hierarchy of duty. I list the various obligations that I have in order of importance. I think it is right and acceptable to betray anything lower on the list for any item that is higher on the list. For example, I would willingly betray my family in favor of the people of the world, my country for my family, my employer for my country, my friends for my master (irrelevant thus far as I haven't found a master yet), and myself for my friends. I find it is good to have things figured out before hand so I can choose quickly if a sudden crisis occurs.

sweep · 02-12-2003, 07:43 PM

my face often betrays me, and tells a thousand words that my mind tries to hide.

but that is only due to the fact that I feel guilty and hide- so, betrayal is only right when I feel wrong.

the moral: don't try to lie- dog is rooting thro your trash

Oh, and there is that newish technique; people recorded on camera and questioned. When someone tells a lie, you can see on the playback that, for a brief moment, fear flashes across the persons face. This is a basic emotional reflex that occurs when the person is under stress and has to think their way out. And that is the tell tale sign...

now, who was the guy that studied this?

02-12-2003, 11:38 PM

Betrayal - is it ever moral?

Is it ever ethical?

I know a few guys who consider themselves to be "smart" IF they managed to fool someone else. They even come up with this huge victory smile with a thought such as "HAHAHA ... What a fool!"

In the end, the fool are the ones who betray others because once betrayed, no one will believe him not matter what he says.

02-12-2003, 04:13 AM	#1
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	Betrayal Brain picking here (mine�s picked clean...) Betrayal - is it ever moral? Is it ever ethical?

02-12-2003, 02:07 PM	#8
Sarpedon Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Minnesota, the least controversial state in the le Posts: 8,446	#11 Item 11 on my code of ethics is a hierarchy of duty. I list the various obligations that I have in order of importance. I think it is right and acceptable to betray anything lower on the list for any item that is higher on the list. For example, I would willingly betray my family in favor of the people of the world, my country for my family, my employer for my country, my friends for my master (irrelevant thus far as I haven't found a master yet), and myself for my friends. I find it is good to have things figured out before hand so I can choose quickly if a sudden crisis occurs.

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02-12-2003, 06:17 AM	#2
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	certainly.

02-12-2003, 06:27 AM	#3
dangin Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: The Middle, Kansas Posts: 2,637	OK, I can't leave it at that. I work in an office that uses video conferencing equipment to connect patients and doctors over great distances so that rural folks can have access to specialists without driving. A coworker, planned on leaving the office and starting a "for profit" (we are nonprofit) telemedicine network to compete with ours. He tried to get some of the technical people to join him in his endeavor. He got ratted out (betrayed) to the bosses, and they busted him for conflict of interest. He still has his job, he is being watched to make sure he isn't mucking about on the state's dime. He was betrayed by his coworkers. But, he is notoriously half assed, he was trying to take both doctors and patients away from an established, well run system, and do it on his own. This would have at the very least cost patients quality of care. Also, when we have a doctor leave, we have 20 more of that specialist ready to take on the patients. If he had his only doctor leave, he would have had patients with no care. (some of which are cancer patients) I think that stopping him when they did, prevented a terminal patient in the future from getting dicked around. Also, as soon as he started his network, we would have called all his sites, and informed them of our services (which include 30 specialties) so that when he dropped the ball, we would have simply taken on his patient load. Thus we cut off a potential source of new patients for ourselves, and prevented him (and his young family) from suffering through a business bankruptcy. (which would have been inevitable). Weighing in all the factors, I think betraying him, actually helped him, whether he realizes it or not.

02-12-2003, 08:20 AM	#4
avalanche:ix Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sin Capital, earth: (Amsterdam) Posts: 104	We're humans, that means we're the lowest scumbags in the universe. we cheat, we lie, we steal, we kill, and we betray. since morality is subjective, betrayal can be moral. if given the chance, i would betray people if the benefits were great enough. anybody who wouldn't, is evolutionary inferior.

02-12-2003, 09:26 AM	#5
Stephen T-B Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Leeds, UK Posts: 5,878	just wondering - do you have any defining marks, avalanche:ix? Something obvious which I can spot at a distance, perhaps?

02-12-2003, 11:00 AM	#6
avalanche:ix Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sin Capital, earth: (Amsterdam) Posts: 104	i'm tall and i...oh wait, you were being sarcastic.

02-12-2003, 07:43 PM	#9
sweep Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: sugar factory Posts: 873	my face often betrays me, and tells a thousand words that my mind tries to hide. but that is only due to the fact that I feel guilty and hide- so, betrayal is only right when I feel wrong. the moral: don't try to lie- dog is rooting thro your trash Oh, and there is that newish technique; people recorded on camera and questioned. When someone tells a lie, you can see on the playback that, for a brief moment, fear flashes across the persons face. This is a basic emotional reflex that occurs when the person is under stress and has to think their way out. And that is the tell tale sign... now, who was the guy that studied this?

02-12-2003, 11:38 PM	#10
Seraphim Guest Posts: n/a	Betrayal - is it ever moral? Is it ever ethical? I know a few guys who consider themselves to be "smart" IF they managed to fool someone else. They even come up with this huge victory smile with a thought such as "HAHAHA ... What a fool!" In the end, the fool are the ones who betray others because once betrayed, no one will believe him not matter what he says.

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