Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mike_decock · 05-15-2003, 07:57 AM

In the Cherry Pickers thread, Rational BAC said the following:

Quote:

There is no reason not to believe a supernatural event happened 2000 years ago either--------unless you think that so many people back then were complete idiots--especially the martyrs for Christianity--of which there were very many.

I have often heard Christians claim that there were many Christian martyrs and that all but one of the apostles were martyred. What evidence is there to support this claim? The only martyrdom I recall in the NT is Stephen.

-Mike...

Rhea · 05-15-2003, 08:54 AM

Yeah, no one ever was killed for not believing in a god. Martyrdom is so exclusive to christianity that it says something about the veracity of christian claims.

*twitches*
*blinks*

The world is so simple when you only see a tiny fraction of it!

Ojuice5001 · 05-15-2003, 09:27 AM

Well, I've heard the "all disciples but John" claim from a book that at least has little pro-Christian bias. Namely, One of a Kind by Bruce Felton. It's one of those "strange but true" books, with a theme of uniqueness (for instance, John was the only disciple to die of natural causes). Even if the author is a Christian, he has checked his facts thoroughly and is not writing Christian propaganda.

mike_decock · 05-15-2003, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ojuice5001
Even if the author is a Christian, he has checked his facts thoroughly and is not writing Christian propaganda.

I'm really hoping to see someone produce primary sources. I'm very curious to see what they are and how reliable they are.

-Mike...

Pyrrho · 05-15-2003, 09:45 AM

I believe that many of the "martyrs" that people think about are those who were killed by the Romans (the ancient Roman Empire) and those who were killed in the middle ages, mostly by other Christians with whom they disagreed. For information on how the numbers of Christians killed by the Romans has been exaggerated, every decent history book since (and including) Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire will be informative (in Gibbon, see Chapters XV & XVI). Many of the early Christians were not only willing to be martyrs, but actively tried to bring their martyrdom about, because they believed that that would guarantee them a place in heaven (which is very much like what many of the terrorist suicide bombers believe). Some of the Roman authorities were reluctant to kill the Christians, but many Christians insisted on being killed. See Gibbon, chapters XV & XVI.

Rhea · 05-15-2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
For information on how the numbers of Christians killed by the Romans has been exaggerated, every decent history book since (and including) Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire will be informative [...] Some of the Roman authorities were reluctant to kill the Christians, but many Christians insisted on being killed. See Gibbons, chapters XV & XVI.

Yeah, but. Yeah, but... they were martyrs! And that means Christianity is true! Or else you'd be calling them complete idiots! Just for asking someone to kill them!!

oh, wait...

MortalWombat · 05-15-2003, 12:25 PM

From How Did the Apostles Die?:

Quote:

Outside of the New Testament, however, evidence of wholesale persecutions of early Christians is primarily a tradition that has been foisted on an unsuspecting Christian public. In his debate with Celsum, Origen, as late as A. D. 240-250, said that the number of Christian martyrs was "few" and "easily numbered":

For in order to remind others, that by seeing a few engaged in a struggle for their religion, they also might be better fitted to despise death, some, on special occasions, and these individuals who can be easily numbered, have endured death for the sake of Christianity (Contra Celsum, Book 3, Chapter 8).

So if more than two centuries after Christianity had its beginning, an important "church father" like Origen could say to a doubter that those who "have endured death for the sake of Christianity" could be "easily numbered," that gives little support for the traditional view of the apostles and early Christians dying in droves for their beliefs.

cloudyphiz · 05-15-2003, 01:18 PM

steven carr, one of the secweb authors, has a good essay on the christian martyrs here.

-gary

Starboy · 05-15-2003, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pyrrho
Some of the Roman authorities were reluctant to kill the Christians, but many Christians insisted on being killed. See Gibbon, chapters XV & XVI.

Ahhhhh, how I long for the good old days. (just kidding of course)

Starboy

Evangelion · 05-15-2003, 07:16 PM

I found Carr's article to be excellent. Most of the "martyrdom" stories concerning the apostles were mere tradition, with no substance in literal fact. One exception is the testimony of Josephus, who gives an account of several Christian martyrs who died at the hands of Annas the high priest. He includes James (the brother of Jesus) in this number.

Meanwhile:

Pliny's letter to Trajan is evidence of an early persecution, while Trajan's reply provides us with a classic example of the examplary Roman preference for religious tolerance. (I wish more Christians would emulate it.)
Hadrian's Rescript likewise condemns the practice of Christian persecution, calling for a return to due process and the observance of Roman law.
Justin Martyr's First Apology was clearly written in response to the criticism and persecution of Christians in his day.
Following the example of Trajan and Hadrian, Antoninus also criticised the practice of Christian persecution, insisting that his governors...

...should not trouble these people [the Christians] unless it should appear that they were attempting something affecting the Roman government. And to me also many have sent communications concerning these men, but I have replied to them in the same way that my father did.

But if any one still persists in bringing accusations against any of these people as such, the person who is accused shall be acquitted of the charge, even if it appear that he is one of them, but the accuser shall be punished.
Christian persecution was rife under Decius and Diocletian.

Notwithstanding this, I agree with the observations of Gibbon in his monumental Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire:

The scale of these persecutions, even the so-called 'Great Persecution' under Diocletian, is now known to have been widely exaggerated by Christian propagandists.

__________________
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use.
S�ren Kierkegaard

05-15-2003, 07:16 PM	#10
Evangelion Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Walsall, UK Posts: 1,490	I found Carr's article to be excellent. Most of the "martyrdom" stories concerning the apostles were mere tradition, with no substance in literal fact. One exception is the testimony of Josephus, who gives an account of several Christian martyrs who died at the hands of Annas the high priest. He includes James (the brother of Jesus) in this number. Meanwhile: Pliny's letter to Trajan is evidence of an early persecution, while Trajan's reply provides us with a classic example of the examplary Roman preference for religious tolerance. (I wish more Christians would emulate it.) Hadrian's Rescript likewise condemns the practice of Christian persecution, calling for a return to due process and the observance of Roman law. Justin Martyr's First Apology was clearly written in response to the criticism and persecution of Christians in his day. Following the example of Trajan and Hadrian, Antoninus also criticised the practice of Christian persecution, insisting that his governors... ...should not trouble these people [the Christians] unless it should appear that they were attempting something affecting the Roman government. And to me also many have sent communications concerning these men, but I have replied to them in the same way that my father did. But if any one still persists in bringing accusations against any of these people as such, the person who is accused shall be acquitted of the charge, even if it appear that he is one of them, but the accuser shall be punished. Christian persecution was rife under Decius and Diocletian. Notwithstanding this, I agree with the observations of Gibbon in his monumental Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire: The scale of these persecutions, even the so-called 'Great Persecution' under Diocletian, is now known to have been widely exaggerated by Christian propagandists. __________________ People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. S�ren Kierkegaard

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05-15-2003, 08:54 AM	#2
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Yeah, no one ever was killed for not believing in a god. Martyrdom is so exclusive to christianity that it says something about the veracity of christian claims. twitches blinks The world is so simple when you only see a tiny fraction of it!

05-15-2003, 09:27 AM	#3
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Well, I've heard the "all disciples but John" claim from a book that at least has little pro-Christian bias. Namely, One of a Kind by Bruce Felton. It's one of those "strange but true" books, with a theme of uniqueness (for instance, John was the only disciple to die of natural causes). Even if the author is a Christian, he has checked his facts thoroughly and is not writing Christian propaganda.

05-15-2003, 09:45 AM	#5
Pyrrho Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: United States Posts: 7,351	I believe that many of the "martyrs" that people think about are those who were killed by the Romans (the ancient Roman Empire) and those who were killed in the middle ages, mostly by other Christians with whom they disagreed. For information on how the numbers of Christians killed by the Romans has been exaggerated, every decent history book since (and including) Edward Gibbon's The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire will be informative (in Gibbon, see Chapters XV & XVI). Many of the early Christians were not only willing to be martyrs, but actively tried to bring their martyrdom about, because they believed that that would guarantee them a place in heaven (which is very much like what many of the terrorist suicide bombers believe). Some of the Roman authorities were reluctant to kill the Christians, but many Christians insisted on being killed. See Gibbon, chapters XV & XVI.

05-15-2003, 01:18 PM	#8
cloudyphiz Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: rochester, ny, usa Posts: 658	steven carr, one of the secweb authors, has a good essay on the christian martyrs here. -gary

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