Freethought & Rationalism Archive

ZiprHead · 10-24-2002, 11:05 AM

This is my first post to this forum. Please forgive me if you've already seen this. I've been lurking here for quite a while and not seen anything about this.

This Republican congressman finally reveals the true reason why President Bush is pushing his "Faith-Based" programs. Here's a juicy quote:

"So his vision is helping overtly Christian organizations pick people up, change their character, convert them regardless of what religion they are, and change their lives."

Here's the address of the interview. Sorry, I don't know how to paste it as a link.:

<a href="http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/interviews/interview.cfm?id=15&pageMode=general" target="_blank">http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/interviews/interview.cfm?id=15&pageMode=general</a>

I haven't had much chance to really check out the entire site but it looks like a veiled promotion tool for the faith-based movement.

Buffman · 10-24-2002, 05:59 PM

BZH

Dandy first post. I had heard the Bush pitch, but expected no less than that position from him, so didn't let it lock in. I'm glad you did. It deserves far more publicity than it got/gets. What I just got a boot out of was the following from the article:

And when people were dying, the government didn�t go after the churches based on what their positions were on hiring and firing their employees.

Hmmmm? It seems like that is the identical argument that our government used for having supported every petty dictator and tyrant around the world just as long as they claimed to be anti-Communist.

galiel · 10-24-2002, 07:37 PM

Wow. Great job, newbie

Buffman, we have to add this to our occasional presentation of the clear and present danger to CSS and of the theocratic coup-in-the-making. Eventually, we'll break through the complaiscancy. Or go down trying.

Toto · 10-24-2002, 08:53 PM

Welcome to the boards. I notice that Souder mentions Americorps. There is already a lawsuit against Americorps:

Quote:

We�re going to refight these variables, but with much more sophistication on Americorps and welfare reform. . . .

On Americorps, I hope that Bobby Scott and the liberal side will do some compromising as long as the Americorps volunteer meets the standard of government hiring, where a person can go to work for a church and can keep their religious entitlement. A church would have to say that the Americrop volunteer is not a witness for their church. We have potential compromises we can work out.

<a href="http://iidb.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=59&t=000724" target="_blank">American Jewish Congress sues Americorps for subsidizing religion </a>

galiel · 10-24-2002, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Toto:
I notice that Souder mentions Americorps. There is already a lawsuit against Americorps:
American Jewish Congress sues Americorps for subsidizing religion

I hope the lawsuit prevails, it could set an important precedent. So galling. The same right-wingers who tried to block the creation of Americorps, then tried as hard as they could, unsuccessfully, to dismantle it--for no good reason other than that it was a Clinton initiative--are now corrupting it to serve their theocratic agenda.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: galiel ]

Alonzo Fyfe · 10-25-2002, 03:45 AM

I have had some growing concern over the past several months, where the government gives billions of dollars to organizations that require employees to profess a belief in God, and were assitance to those who do not have jobs requires subjecting oneself to being preached at and judged deserving by those same groups.

One of the economic effects of the government giving increasing amounts of money to organizations that refuse to hire atheists, is that a route to economic advancement (e.g., entry-level positions, job experience and on-the-job training, and potentially higher pay) is increasingly widened. But that route contains a sign at the turnoff that says, "no atheists allowed; non-believers must find alternative route."

A specific individual may not be able to point to a specific effect of this discrimination, and it may be hard to notice on an individual basis, but the effect exist nonetheless. As atheists compete in a smaller labor pool than atheists, and compete against theists who gain work experience, employment contacts, and advancement opportunities not available to atheists, all atheists will experience at least some negative economic impact.

This is, indeed, an economic law at work. And it will work to give theists an important employment advantage over atheists.

The more money that the government gives to institutions that may engage in prejudicial hiring, the greater the theist's employment advantage will be.

[ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]

dangin · 10-25-2002, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alonzo Fyfe:

But that route contains a sign at the turnoff that says, "no atheists allowed; non-believers must find alternative route."

Excellent way of demonstrating the failure of this program.

Buffman · 10-25-2002, 09:46 AM

The real irony...atheists are financially contributing to their own economic and citizenship disadvantage.

10-24-2002, 11:05 AM	#1
ZiprHead Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: SagNasty. Posts: 3,034	Congressman Reveals The Truth This is my first post to this forum. Please forgive me if you've already seen this. I've been lurking here for quite a while and not seen anything about this. This Republican congressman finally reveals the true reason why President Bush is pushing his "Faith-Based" programs. Here's a juicy quote: "So his vision is helping overtly Christian organizations pick people up, change their character, convert them regardless of what religion they are, and change their lives." Here's the address of the interview. Sorry, I don't know how to paste it as a link.: <a href="http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/interviews/interview.cfm?id=15&pageMode=general" target="_blank">http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/interviews/interview.cfm?id=15&pageMode=general</a> I haven't had much chance to really check out the entire site but it looks like a veiled promotion tool for the faith-based movement.

10-25-2002, 03:45 AM	#6
Alonzo Fyfe Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: 920B Milo Circle Lafayette, CO Posts: 3,515	I have had some growing concern over the past several months, where the government gives billions of dollars to organizations that require employees to profess a belief in God, and were assitance to those who do not have jobs requires subjecting oneself to being preached at and judged deserving by those same groups. One of the economic effects of the government giving increasing amounts of money to organizations that refuse to hire atheists, is that a route to economic advancement (e.g., entry-level positions, job experience and on-the-job training, and potentially higher pay) is increasingly widened. But that route contains a sign at the turnoff that says, "no atheists allowed; non-believers must find alternative route." A specific individual may not be able to point to a specific effect of this discrimination, and it may be hard to notice on an individual basis, but the effect exist nonetheless. As atheists compete in a smaller labor pool than atheists, and compete against theists who gain work experience, employment contacts, and advancement opportunities not available to atheists, all atheists will experience at least some negative economic impact. This is, indeed, an economic law at work. And it will work to give theists an important employment advantage over atheists. The more money that the government gives to institutions that may engage in prejudicial hiring, the greater the theist's employment advantage will be. [ October 25, 2002: Message edited by: Alonzo Fyfe ]</p>

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10-24-2002, 05:59 PM	#2
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	BZH Dandy first post. I had heard the Bush pitch, but expected no less than that position from him, so didn't let it lock in. I'm glad you did. It deserves far more publicity than it got/gets. What I just got a boot out of was the following from the article: And when people were dying, the government didn�t go after the churches based on what their positions were on hiring and firing their employees. Hmmmm? It seems like that is the identical argument that our government used for having supported every petty dictator and tyrant around the world just as long as they claimed to be anti-Communist.

10-24-2002, 07:37 PM	#3
galiel Banned Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Eastern Massachusetts Posts: 1,677	Wow. Great job, newbie Buffman, we have to add this to our occasional presentation of the clear and present danger to CSS and of the theocratic coup-in-the-making. Eventually, we'll break through the complaiscancy. Or go down trying.

10-25-2002, 09:46 AM	#8
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	The real irony...atheists are financially contributing to their own economic and citizenship disadvantage.

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