Freethought & Rationalism Archive

tgamble · 11-06-2002, 03:09 PM

"Gould lied, or had a very convenient misunderstanding, take your pick.

No one ever used Gould�s words to convince others that Gould believed �that the fossil record includes no transitional forms.� Bullchips. Creationists used Gould�s and many other evolutionists� words to support the fact that the fossil record is a very reliable witness *against* Darwin/Dawkins-style gradual evolution. Creationists repeatedly pointed to the fact that Gould�s �punctuated equilibrium theory� was nothing more than an ad-hoc, desperate attempt to reconcile the fossil record to macroevolutionary theory (of some kind or another), and professor Gould naturally chafed under the withering (but completely justified) criticism."

<a href="http://creationtalk.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000023-2.html" target="_blank">http://creationtalk.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000023-2.html</a>

Your mission (should you choose to accept it) is to seek out examples of creationists quoteing Gould to do that very thing, "admitting that there are no transitional fossils." or words to that effect.

As always, if you or your fellow infidels are killed or just plain go crazy from having to read creationist bullshit, the SW will disallow all knowlege of your activities.

This message will self destruct in 5 seconds.

Doubting Didymus · 11-06-2002, 03:22 PM

Actually, the criticism of gould that I most often encounter, at least from the more experienced creationists, is in fact the one in your quote: that punkeek is an ad - hoc attempt to reconcile a fossil record that discounts evolution, with evolution.

Of course, the idea that gould 'said' that there are no transitional forms is also common.

Valentine Pontifex · 11-06-2002, 03:28 PM

As I have pointed out many times before, PE was largely based on the ideas of Ernst Mayr who was not trying to explain the fossil record. This historical fact needs to be mentioned.

Doubting Didymus · 11-06-2002, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Valentine Pontifex:
<strong>...Ernst Mayr, who was not trying to explain the fossil record. </strong>

Go on, I don't think I've heard about this. Would you mind explaining one more time?

Bubba · 11-06-2002, 03:44 PM

tgamble, do you suppose this guy has read Gould for himself at all?

Let's see...what did I accuse him of...parroting Johnson...HMMM.

Keep on fighting, Homer...

Bubba

lpetrich · 11-06-2002, 03:48 PM

That viewpoint is new to me also. Here is <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/01.3.prothero-punc-eq.html" target="_blank">a nice article on punc-eq</a>. SJG and his colleague Niles Eldredge developed punc-eq to account for how the fossil record stubbornly refused to fit gradualist expectations, even when one had large numbers of fossils on hand.

SJG was also acquainted with Ernst Mayr's theorizing of how speciation happens, and inspired by that theorizing, he proposed that a new species forms from some offshoot population that evolves relatively fast before getting well-established.

And SJG and NE had indeed pointed out some between-species transitional fossils -- some trilobites that they had found in a quarry in upstate New York. If they had not been found, then one would conclude that there were no intermediates between two already-known species of trilobite. So for many fossil species, transitions between them are rarely found.

lpetrich · 11-06-2002, 03:57 PM

More specifically, while one-celled organisms typically show gradualism, multicelled ones show punc-eq.

This may be connected to how they reproduce.

One-celled organisms alternate between sexual and asexual reproduction, and may reproduce asexually most or all of the time. This allows genetic differences to accumulate gradually.

However, multicelled ones usually reproduce sexually, which means recombination at each generation. This puts a brake on evolution, because too-different versions of genes cause incompatibility. However, in small populations, such variations may quickly become fixed, providing raw material for more evolution.

WinAce · 11-06-2002, 05:46 PM

Quote:

H. J. Simpson: “What’s 'raciation'?”

Evolskeptic: The first step in speciation, the divergence of a species into multiple races.

11-06-2002, 03:09 PM	#1
tgamble Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: St. John's, Nfld. Canada Posts: 1,652	An astounding claim. "Gould lied, or had a very convenient misunderstanding, take your pick. No one ever used Gould�s words to convince others that Gould believed �that the fossil record includes no transitional forms.� Bullchips. Creationists used Gould�s and many other evolutionists� words to support the fact that the fossil record is a very reliable witness against Darwin/Dawkins-style gradual evolution. Creationists repeatedly pointed to the fact that Gould�s �punctuated equilibrium theory� was nothing more than an ad-hoc, desperate attempt to reconcile the fossil record to macroevolutionary theory (of some kind or another), and professor Gould naturally chafed under the withering (but completely justified) criticism." <a href="http://creationtalk.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000023-2.html" target="_blank">http://creationtalk.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000023-2.html</a> Your mission (should you choose to accept it) is to seek out examples of creationists quoteing Gould to do that very thing, "admitting that there are no transitional fossils." or words to that effect. As always, if you or your fellow infidels are killed or just plain go crazy from having to read creationist bullshit, the SW will disallow all knowlege of your activities. This message will self destruct in 5 seconds.

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11-06-2002, 03:22 PM	#2
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Actually, the criticism of gould that I most often encounter, at least from the more experienced creationists, is in fact the one in your quote: that punkeek is an ad - hoc attempt to reconcile a fossil record that discounts evolution, with evolution. Of course, the idea that gould 'said' that there are no transitional forms is also common.

11-06-2002, 03:28 PM	#3
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	As I have pointed out many times before, PE was largely based on the ideas of Ernst Mayr who was not trying to explain the fossil record. This historical fact needs to be mentioned.

11-06-2002, 03:44 PM	#5
Bubba Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Orient, OH USA Posts: 1,501	tgamble, do you suppose this guy has read Gould for himself at all? Let's see...what did I accuse him of...parroting Johnson...HMMM. Keep on fighting, Homer... Bubba

11-06-2002, 03:48 PM	#6
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	That viewpoint is new to me also. Here is <a href="http://www.skeptic.com/01.3.prothero-punc-eq.html" target="_blank">a nice article on punc-eq</a>. SJG and his colleague Niles Eldredge developed punc-eq to account for how the fossil record stubbornly refused to fit gradualist expectations, even when one had large numbers of fossils on hand. SJG was also acquainted with Ernst Mayr's theorizing of how speciation happens, and inspired by that theorizing, he proposed that a new species forms from some offshoot population that evolves relatively fast before getting well-established. And SJG and NE had indeed pointed out some between-species transitional fossils -- some trilobites that they had found in a quarry in upstate New York. If they had not been found, then one would conclude that there were no intermediates between two already-known species of trilobite. So for many fossil species, transitions between them are rarely found.

11-06-2002, 03:57 PM	#7
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	More specifically, while one-celled organisms typically show gradualism, multicelled ones show punc-eq. This may be connected to how they reproduce. One-celled organisms alternate between sexual and asexual reproduction, and may reproduce asexually most or all of the time. This allows genetic differences to accumulate gradually. However, multicelled ones usually reproduce sexually, which means recombination at each generation. This puts a brake on evolution, because too-different versions of genes cause incompatibility. However, in small populations, such variations may quickly become fixed, providing raw material for more evolution.

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