Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Sabine Grant · 03-09-2003, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth
Amos you could at least back up your confusing and mostly gratuitous assertions with some Catholic authorities. That's not much to ask really. I mean, show some links to TWO Catholic theologians preaching this stuff- pergatory ends at death, all Popes are above judgement, that speaking in tongues can produce no fruit except self-righteousness, yada yada. (Criminy. Why would the Pope bless it then?).

I suspect you have no credible or official backing anywhere for this stuff, let alone the Bible, and your thinking is so exclusionary as to be simply escoteric and cultish. Otherwise I'm sure we might have a chance of compromising as Mom suggested. And I don't recall EVER used bad Catholic examples to argue anything with you.

Rad

now wait a minute Radie... I am not that old to be your mom though I kind of like the thought to send both Amos and you to your rooms until you both refocus on the essential message of God being the only one who knows the intent of your mind. Plus I would deprive you of your desert for dinner.... or maybe your glass of wine ( for Amos hehehhehe).
Maman.

Sabine Grant · 03-09-2003, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Yes he did, but we can only get to Jesus if we go through Mary because she is the god-bearer. Without a virgin rebirth we will have a non-virgin rebirth and a malevolent mother who cannot lead us through the purgation period wherein we must be set free from the law. This freedom equals the end of religion while we in direct communion with Mary who is the queen of angels and therefore also the source of the HS (sic) or she could not be our seat of our wisdom.

IOW the descent of the HS should mean that the HS is down to stay and this is equal to the end of our prayerlife. Hence the crucifixion of Jesus was the victory of Mary (see Masaccio "The Crucifixion)" or just "Mary there is your son, son there is your mother" as spoken by Jesus from the cross.

peek a boo Amos... have you ever heard of the other interpretation of Jesus' words on the cross as Him recommending Mary to his brother John?

Fiach · 03-09-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spaz
When I was a christian I was protestant, so I don't know a whole lot about catholicism, and some of the things such as the immaculate birth and purgatory weren't part of my sect of christianity, so what I'm wondering is what all did catholics make up? And how did they come about with those things?

Catholicism becaue the official religion of the Empire of Constantine in 324 CE at the Council of Nicaea. Caholicism replaced all conflicting forms of Christianty at that time. What were the NEW CONCEPTS of Catholic Christianity?

1. Sunday as the sabbath instead of Saturday.

2. Dec. 25, Winter Solstice and birthday of Mithra adoped as the birthday of Jesus.

3. The adoption of the Trinity, not accepted by rival christian sects, was taken from the Old Egyptian Trinity of Father(Amun or Atum), Son (Aten or Horus), Holy Spirit Messenger (Knepf or Ra). Tertullian substituted God the Father (JHWH), Son (Jesus), and just kept the name Holy Spirit as the third person of the trinity.

4. Jesus was elevated to full godhood, whereas many older Christian sects considered hiim a minor god(Arians), or just a human being Messiah (Ebionites).

5. They officially adopted the Mithraic concept of "saving grace" and being baptised in water.

6. They took the 7 sacraments of Mithraism and made them Christian-Catholic.

7. Catholicism didn't at first have a western pope. They recognised the patriarchs of Rome, Constantinomple, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria as equals.

(The Pope achieved power in a secular breakdown of the Roman-Byzantine provence of Rome-Ravenna. With the loss of any power by the Roman exarchate or governor, the absence of an Imperial military presence, the Pope assumed rule. He paid for his own mediaeval army, and gradually recieved the West European Kings as weak vassals, getting some protection and money in return.)

All but a few fringe sects of Christianity today are "Catholic". There are Protestant Catholics and Roman Catholics. But there are only trivial differences in belief systems.

Fiach

Magus55 · 03-09-2003, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
The very bible that you follow so precisely tells you not to: "[you] search the scriptures in which you think you have eternal--they testify on my behalf. Yet you are unwilling to come to me to possess that life" (Jn.5:39-40).

Because you get only a promise of eternal life you must die before anything good can possibly happen to you.

We, on the other hand, can go through Mary to Jesus and possess that life now (to be enjoyed here and now) and this same life will end when we die. See the difference?

Our physical death will be our second death and for you it will be both the first and the second death.

Is this implying i'm not saved because im not Catholic?

We need no mediator to go through Jesus - He is our mediator between God the Father and humans.

And what kinda life now are you referring to? Does praying to Mary make you rich or famous?

All this junk about Mary isn't Biblical, where then is it coming from? The Pope? because he certaintly isn't sinless...

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I don't see Mary mentioned anywhere in that verse do you?

03-09-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sabine Grant
peek a boo Amos... have you ever heard of the other interpretation of Jesus' words on the cross as Him recommending Mary to his brother John?

I like mine better. Jesus and John were bosom buddies, with John being the Christ identity that was set free under the name of Bar-abbas now below the cross and Jesus the old Joseph identity here crucified. Both Mary and John stand in admiration of their accomplishment in Masaccio's painting which is located at the top of the Royal staircase at the Vatican.

Radorth · 03-09-2003, 03:55 PM

Re: Fiach

Quote:

They officially adopted the Mithraic concept of "saving grace" and being baptised in water.

Huh? You mean they couldn't find it in writings of the early fathers, except 50 references, so they went back further? I'm sorry, but the idea was rather lost by Catholics, not found.

Rad

03-09-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Is this implying i'm not saved because im not Catholic?

If you are don't brag about it. Jesus told us to tell noone.

Quote:

We need no mediator to go through Jesus - He is our mediator between God the Father and humans.

How can Jesus be our mediator if we must die to our humanity? Should he communicate with what we once were? Or are we just pretending that we died so we can communicate? Or maybe we are not communicating?

Quote:

And what kinda life now are you referring to? Does praying to Mary make you rich or famous?

Who needs money and fame when the streets are paved with gold?

Quote:

All this junk about Mary isn't Biblical, where then is it coming from? The Pope? because he certaintly isn't sinless...

The Pope doesn't have to be sinless. Leave the poor guy out of it. Why do you think Mary is exclusive for Catholics and "sola scriptura" is exclusive to protestants? Could it be that we don't want yours and you can't be part of of ours?

Radorth · 03-09-2003, 04:04 PM

Quote:

now wait a minute Radie... I am not that old to be your mom though I kind of like the thought to send both Amos and you to your rooms until you both refocus on the essential message of God being the only one who knows the intent of your mind. Plus I would deprive you of your desert for dinner.... or maybe your glass of wine ( for Amos hehehhehe).

You hear that Amos! Go to your room and sober up, or I'm telling!

Catholic brothers. What a pain.

Rad

Radorth · 03-09-2003, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Who needs money and fame when the streets are paved with gold?

Not to mention the Vatican.

Ouch!!

Hey! Who just whacked me on the butt?

Rad

Magus55 · 03-09-2003, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos

If you are don't brag about it. Jesus told us to tell noone.[/b]

How can Jesus be our mediator if we must die to our humanity? Should he communicate with what we once were? Or are we just pretending that we died so we can communicate? Or maybe we are not communicating? [/b]

Who needs money and fame when the streets are paved with gold?

The Pope doesn't have to be sinless. Leave the poor guy out of it. Why do you think Mary is exclusive for Catholics and "sola scriptura" is exclusive to protestants? Could it be that we don't want yours and you can't be part of of ours? [/B]

How am I bragging? I asked if you meant that i'm not saved since i'm not catholic.

Do you think Mary can hear your prayers? She isn't omniscient or possess any Godlike characteristics.

You are dodging the question on what Mary offers. What does Mary bring to Catholics in this life, that others don't get?

I think Mary is exclusive for Catholics because you are blinded by false doctrines and heresy and praying to Mary is violating God's first law.

Exodus
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Bowing down to statues of Mary and praying to her is putting her above God and making her an idol. Mary is NOT to be worshipped.

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