Freethought & Rationalism Archive

pseudobug · 03-13-2002, 10:10 PM

just a report, ladies and gentleman, on the denouement of the randman incident.

The election is in progress and that randy bugger-- and every evolutionist's worst nightmare-- randmen of Zigga zumba land, is gasping like a "fish" out of water at his imminent defeat at the hands of that "just a theory"---mere Darwinism--and it's evil proponents. He seems to be accepting defeat at the hands of the timeless American tradition--the Democratic vote of his peers in ZZL-land (too bad they can't just look at the evidence and decide, hmmm?).

Sadly, though, the controversy was so venomous that evolution threads are being eliminated at a rapid rate as well--but that is beside the point.

Anyway, randman, always the clever, sharp debater who recognizes in an instant the "tactics and aims" of evilotionists, pulls out the final solution--the appeal to emotion.

I leave this with you in memorium to the electronic demise of a fundie (and also becasue it will be deleted soon):

Quote:

Maybe the last evolution thread. by randman
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This will make PC and esoll glad. I have been spending too much time here as it is, and basketball season is over for the Heels, so my days here were quickly winding down as it was, and thinking that many of you actually believe PC and esoll haven't had their butts whipped is further confirmation that perhaps I am wasting some time by posting my other comments and links from web-sites and such.
Be that as it may, I want to make one last post, hopefully, on the Creation/evolution debate.
PC and the rest are not simply arguing for evolution, what they are really trying to say is that there is no God, no Creator.
Moreover, they want to silence even considering the actual data in light of the idea of whether a Creator could have created all of life and all of the world. Their goal is really a religious one, and deeply felt.
That is why they oppose even theistic evolutionists who are part of the Intelligent Design movement. They want to silence and denigrate anyone claiming God exists, even those that beleive in evolution.
But if one looks at all the evidence, one will see that there is no evidence that proves that God did not create all of the basic forms of species, all of the kinds if you would. All of the evidence is fully consistent, and actually more consistent, with the idea of a Designer, of a Creator. That is infinitely more plausible than it all happened by accident.
To illustrate special creation by analogy, I am a creator of art. All of my paintings are similar, though some works are quite different, and some aren't even paintings at all, things like sculpture.
Nonetheless, they all have similarities, and the closer to the same time that they were done, the more similar they usually appear. In fact, they kind of evolve one into another at times.
But the thing is, they don't actually evolve.
They are all created by me. The same process can be said of God. He creates via a process and via time. If you beleive there is a God, then it is obvious that time, which He created, and process is something that God works within to create, and He does this for His own reasons.
Ask yourself this deep within. Is it reasonable to beleive that all of life came from mere chance, that in fact, there is no Creator of it?
I think you will find you agree with me on the answer.

The link while it lasts:<a href="http://pub93.ezboard.com/finsidecarolinafrm7.showMessage?topicID=2023.topic " target="_blank">The link to randy-randman's, the "Last Fish at the Zigga Zumba Corral"</a>

MrDarwin · 03-14-2002, 05:05 AM

Has anybody pointed out yet that evolution and belief in god(s) are not mutually exclusive? Creationists always seem to try to frame the argument in terms of evolution = atheism but many Christians consider evolution to be the tool by which their god created life. (And if he raises the red herring argument that "God would not create using death and destruction" then just point out that we already have death and destruction all around us, and then ask sweetly just what deity he believes created the earth in the first place?)

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

theyeti · 03-14-2002, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Their goal is really a religious one, and deeply felt. That is why they oppose even theistic evolutionists who are part of the Intelligent Design movement.

Hypocrisy aside, this is exactly what randman's problem is. He doesn't even understand the side he's defending, much less the side he's attacking. The ID movement does NOT consort with theistic evolutionists. Bill Dembski has proclaimed that ID is "no friend of theistic evolution". And Philip Johnson, always being generous, has called TEs "worse than atheists" (which I would consider a compliment). TEs are more similar to us than to IDists.

theyeti

Late_Cretaceous · 03-14-2002, 06:24 AM

The funniest part is where he compares himself to God, and his art to God's creation. All of his art looks basically the same is supposed to be evidence for creationism?

bluefugue · 03-14-2002, 06:32 AM

Quote:

but many Christians consider evolution to be the tool by which their god created life.

They're not true Christians. We all know Kenneth Miller is a closet atheist.

MrDarwin · 03-14-2002, 11:02 AM

Randman sez:

Quote:

I haven't seen yet how evolution is falsifiable. I have read the lenghty attempts on Talkorigins to make it so, but it comes down basically to whatever they find, they assume it fits into evolutionary theory.

Randman seems unable to distinguish between cannot be falsified and has not been falsified.

Any number of things could falsify evolutionary theory; for example, the discovery of ANY organism occurring before the group it evolved from came into existence would pose a serious problem for evolution. A rabbit fossil in Precambrian sediments--or ANY OTHER modern vertebrate--for example. ANY modern mammal in any Paleozoic sediments. Human fossils in Mesozoic sediments. The list goes on and on.

I might also point out that the sudden appearance of a previously unknown, completely new species of large (i.e., conspicuous) mammal, in a well-known area like Central Park, would immediately falsify evolution.

[ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

theyeti · 03-14-2002, 11:09 AM

If evolution can't be falsified, then what was it he was arguing about in the first place? Why did he bring up all of those quotes (in his one-trick-pony way) from people who supposedly said that the fossil record falsifies evolution? If anything pisses me off about creationism/ID, it's the blatant hypocrisy. Michael Behe, on NPR last week, stated that Darwinism was unfalsifiable, right after bringing up the bacterial flagellum as an example of something that falsifies Darwinism! Just what the hell did he develop his IC concept for if not to falsify Darwinism? It sure doesn't give any positive evidence of ID. I just don't understand these people.

theyeti

RufusAtticus · 03-14-2002, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by theyeti:
<strong>If anything pisses me off about creationism/ID, it's the blatant hypocrisy.</strong>

I second!
-RvFvS

phlebas · 03-14-2002, 01:21 PM

Last night, I finally got approval to post on that board. I had planned to give the Opposition's Rebuttal to some of the more ridiculous claims of how he was treated during his short, boring time here.

But now... eh. I think I'm just ready to let it die for now.

Dark Jedi · 03-15-2002, 05:08 AM

I bit of a hoot..

I directed a friend to the Infidels boards because I thought he might be interested. He popped in and read up a tad. I got this response. Note that I did not mention any particular trolls or forums, just the board. It appears that randman sticks out like a sore thumb:

"That guy randman is a hoot....he even posted to a thread about relativity, time travel, and black holes, where he loves to think about such things because it lets him know how big and powerful god is...
Sadly, Randman clearly does not possess enough common sense to frame his world in a rational manner, so he has turned to religion to frame it for him. I imagine he sleeps alot better now that all that random chance is out of his life and there is absolution in its place. I wonder if randman ever thought of the terrifying implications of his beliefs. More likely, he is so pacified at not having questions he doesn't care."

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03-14-2002, 05:05 AM	#2
MrDarwin Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 4,140	Has anybody pointed out yet that evolution and belief in god(s) are not mutually exclusive? Creationists always seem to try to frame the argument in terms of evolution = atheism but many Christians consider evolution to be the tool by which their god created life. (And if he raises the red herring argument that "God would not create using death and destruction" then just point out that we already have death and destruction all around us, and then ask sweetly just what deity he believes created the earth in the first place?) [ March 14, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

03-14-2002, 06:24 AM	#4
Late_Cretaceous Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,049	The funniest part is where he compares himself to God, and his art to God's creation. All of his art looks basically the same is supposed to be evidence for creationism?

03-14-2002, 11:09 AM	#7
theyeti Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Denver, CO, USA Posts: 9,747	If evolution can't be falsified, then what was it he was arguing about in the first place? Why did he bring up all of those quotes (in his one-trick-pony way) from people who supposedly said that the fossil record falsifies evolution? If anything pisses me off about creationism/ID, it's the blatant hypocrisy. Michael Behe, on NPR last week, stated that Darwinism was unfalsifiable, right after bringing up the bacterial flagellum as an example of something that falsifies Darwinism! Just what the hell did he develop his IC concept for if not to falsify Darwinism? It sure doesn't give any positive evidence of ID. I just don't understand these people. theyeti

03-14-2002, 01:21 PM	#9
phlebas Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Metropolis Posts: 916	Last night, I finally got approval to post on that board. I had planned to give the Opposition's Rebuttal to some of the more ridiculous claims of how he was treated during his short, boring time here. But now... eh. I think I'm just ready to let it die for now.

03-15-2002, 05:08 AM	#10
Dark Jedi Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Afghanistan Posts: 4,666	I bit of a hoot.. I directed a friend to the Infidels boards because I thought he might be interested. He popped in and read up a tad. I got this response. Note that I did not mention any particular trolls or forums, just the board. It appears that randman sticks out like a sore thumb: "That guy randman is a hoot....he even posted to a thread about relativity, time travel, and black holes, where he loves to think about such things because it lets him know how big and powerful god is... Sadly, Randman clearly does not possess enough common sense to frame his world in a rational manner, so he has turned to religion to frame it for him. I imagine he sleeps alot better now that all that random chance is out of his life and there is absolution in its place. I wonder if randman ever thought of the terrifying implications of his beliefs. More likely, he is so pacified at not having questions he doesn't care."

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