Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jewel · 07-31-2003, 05:06 AM

Manatee School Board says it will fight for prayer

Quote:

BRADENTON -- Defiant School Board members signaled Monday night that they were willing to fight for the right to recite the Lord's Prayer before meetings.

Fueled by an outpouring of public support from dozens of people urging the board to return prayer to the public schools, board members said they were willing to defy the nation's courts.

"As long as I'm on the board, I will say the Lord's Prayer," board member Frank Brunner said, adding that he wasn't afraid to be led out of the room in handcuffs.

"We have to draw a line in the sand," said School Board Chairwoman Barbara Harvey, suggesting the board seek advice from groups such as the American Center for Law and Justice, which provides legal guidance to Christian organizations.

The board's action, if executed, could set up a battle between People for the American Way and the board, along with one or more pro-prayer groups.

Schools Superintendent Roger Dearing urged caution. He said the issue should be placed on the agenda and discussed more fully.

"If you want to do this, you need to be aware of your legal and fiduciary responsibilities," Dearing said.

Members said the board has been saying the Lord's Prayer for at least two decades and had been told in the past that it was legal. Sarasota and Charlotte county school boards don't begin meetings with a prayer.

Last week, board attorney Mark Barnebey said that to avoid a threatened lawsuit, the board should invite a member of the clergy to give an nonsectarian invocation instead of a prayer that referred to any specific religion.

That led to Monday night's outpouring of support from the Christian community. By board member Larry Simmons' count, some 55 people had signed cards to speak during the public comment section of the meeting.

Many expressed similar sentiments connecting the decline in religion in school with increased violence, teen pregnancy, and drug use.

I guess it's time to send more money to People For the American Way.

scumble · 07-31-2003, 06:37 AM

It's strange. In the UK we have religious content in assemblies at school, but I don't think people would think saying the Lord's Prayer before a meeting was a particularly great thing. In many ways I like the reserved nature of many British people.

Buffman · 07-31-2003, 04:38 PM

Having lived in central Florida for the last 23 years, I have found this to be a useful URL with which to gain additional insights into county demographics. (Just mouse ckick on Manatee. I live in Lake.)

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/maps/florida_map.html

Bill Snedden · 07-31-2003, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jewel
"Defiant School Board members signaled Monday night that they were willing to fight for the right to recite the Lord's Prayer before meetings."

This is the kind of g**d**** f******* lying that we, as separationists, need to do all in our power to stop.

No one is trying to stop anyone from praying before a meeting. The members of the School Board have every right to pray in their homes, or meet somewhere, even in the building where the meeting will take place, to offer a prayer before the meeting starts. The real issue, which for some reason nobody can seem to ever get right, is that they want to begin an official government meeting with a prayer.

Why does the truth seem to be so difficult to comprehend?

SLD · 07-31-2003, 09:05 PM

What morons. Complaining about being dragged away in handcuffs for saying the lord's prayer? Politicians can be so stupidly melodramatic. That's exactly what he wants to have happen so he can get up there and brag about it to the electorate - it might even get the moron elected to Congress. Sheesh.

What it will do, is to waste needless dollars on money for lawsuits and fines instead of using it for education.

SLD

SLD · 07-31-2003, 09:19 PM

I just wanted to add that I would love to see a freethinker stand up at the open meetings of this board and say:

"I am not a Christian. Many of your fellow citizens, your school teachers, students, police officers, firefighters, and yes, even your military members, are not Christians. Yet we are still Americans and we are endowed by whatever we consider to be our creator with the same rights and freedoms as the most fundamentalist Christian in this County. The schools are just as much ours as they are yours. The schools exist to educate all of us - regardless of our faith or lack thereof.

It is not a matter of me being offended by having to hear the lord's prayer - what is offensive is that I am being told that I am a second class citizen because I am not a Christian, because I refuse to bow down to a God I don't believe in. No. I am an American and I do not need to believe in any God in order to be treated before this board with all of the same respect and dignity as anyone else. By holding such prayers in public, you are singling out those of us who do not subscribe to your views and creating a strong impression that our views will not be heard and our demands will not be given consideration because of our religious beliefs. That is why we, in the words of James Madison, must have the strictest separation of church and state.

We should end this political grandstanding and recognize it for what it is - a shameless ploy to gain sympathy votes for re-election. You know as any thinking person knows, that you will not be led away in chains - even though that is what you really desire so that you can go back to the voters and launch a political career. It won't happen. The Courts have already seen through this charade before and they will not give you the satisfaction of being arrested for contempt. You will however be forced to waste thousands of tax dollars on a needless lawsuit and thousands more in penalties for contempt of court. All of this is money that would better be spent on our Children's education which is the real reason for having this board - education - not indoctrinated religion. Leave that to the homes and churches where it belongs, and let's keep our schools open for all of us."

What do you think? You'd get about 15 seconds into it and then they'd run you out and burn you at the stake?

SLD

Gawdawful · 07-31-2003, 09:34 PM

I think it would go something like this:

"I am not a Christian. Many of your fellow citizens, your school teachers, students, police officers, firefighters, and yes, even your military members, are not Chris....

*bam**bam**bam* You're out of order, be seated or be removed. Security![handcuff chains jingle]

Then again, maybe not. I doubt they'd take it seriously though.

Warren in Oklahoma

Rhaedas · 07-31-2003, 10:17 PM

That's great, SLD. Poetic in fact.

The gavel would quickly fall...but not before the point was made.

Jewel · 08-01-2003, 04:59 AM

SLD -- I love it! What I'd give to be able to see that speech delivered. Priceless!

scigirl · 08-01-2003, 10:37 AM

SLD- that was awesome!! I want to steal it. . . .

Why don't we use their Holey Babble against them. Read them the "do unto others" thing, then ask if they would want someone to shove paganism or Islam down their throat or assume that they were pagan or Muslim. When they say "no," than say "well than don't do it to us.

scigirl

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07-31-2003, 06:37 AM	#2
scumble Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: UK Posts: 279	It's strange. In the UK we have religious content in assemblies at school, but I don't think people would think saying the Lord's Prayer before a meeting was a particularly great thing. In many ways I like the reserved nature of many British people.

07-31-2003, 04:38 PM	#3
Buffman Beloved Deceased Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: central Florida Posts: 3,546	Having lived in central Florida for the last 23 years, I have found this to be a useful URL with which to gain additional insights into county demographics. (Just mouse ckick on Manatee. I live in Lake.) http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/maps/florida_map.html

07-31-2003, 09:05 PM	#5
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	What morons. Complaining about being dragged away in handcuffs for saying the lord's prayer? Politicians can be so stupidly melodramatic. That's exactly what he wants to have happen so he can get up there and brag about it to the electorate - it might even get the moron elected to Congress. Sheesh. What it will do, is to waste needless dollars on money for lawsuits and fines instead of using it for education. SLD

07-31-2003, 09:19 PM	#6
SLD Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Birmingham, Alabama Posts: 4,109	I just wanted to add that I would love to see a freethinker stand up at the open meetings of this board and say: "I am not a Christian. Many of your fellow citizens, your school teachers, students, police officers, firefighters, and yes, even your military members, are not Christians. Yet we are still Americans and we are endowed by whatever we consider to be our creator with the same rights and freedoms as the most fundamentalist Christian in this County. The schools are just as much ours as they are yours. The schools exist to educate all of us - regardless of our faith or lack thereof. It is not a matter of me being offended by having to hear the lord's prayer - what is offensive is that I am being told that I am a second class citizen because I am not a Christian, because I refuse to bow down to a God I don't believe in. No. I am an American and I do not need to believe in any God in order to be treated before this board with all of the same respect and dignity as anyone else. By holding such prayers in public, you are singling out those of us who do not subscribe to your views and creating a strong impression that our views will not be heard and our demands will not be given consideration because of our religious beliefs. That is why we, in the words of James Madison, must have the strictest separation of church and state. We should end this political grandstanding and recognize it for what it is - a shameless ploy to gain sympathy votes for re-election. You know as any thinking person knows, that you will not be led away in chains - even though that is what you really desire so that you can go back to the voters and launch a political career. It won't happen. The Courts have already seen through this charade before and they will not give you the satisfaction of being arrested for contempt. You will however be forced to waste thousands of tax dollars on a needless lawsuit and thousands more in penalties for contempt of court. All of this is money that would better be spent on our Children's education which is the real reason for having this board - education - not indoctrinated religion. Leave that to the homes and churches where it belongs, and let's keep our schools open for all of us." What do you think? You'd get about 15 seconds into it and then they'd run you out and burn you at the stake? SLD

07-31-2003, 09:34 PM	#7
Gawdawful Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: In a cardboard box under the viaduct. Posts: 2,107	I think it would go something like this: "I am not a Christian. Many of your fellow citizens, your school teachers, students, police officers, firefighters, and yes, even your military members, are not Chris.... bambambam You're out of order, be seated or be removed. Security![handcuff chains jingle] Then again, maybe not. I doubt they'd take it seriously though. Warren in Oklahoma

07-31-2003, 10:17 PM	#8
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	That's great, SLD. Poetic in fact. The gavel would quickly fall...but not before the point was made.

08-01-2003, 04:59 AM	#9
Jewel Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Northern Virginia, USA Posts: 1,112	SLD -- I love it! What I'd give to be able to see that speech delivered. Priceless!

08-01-2003, 10:37 AM	#10
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	SLD- that was awesome!! I want to steal it. . . . Why don't we use their Holey Babble against them. Read them the "do unto others" thing, then ask if they would want someone to shove paganism or Islam down their throat or assume that they were pagan or Muslim. When they say "no," than say "well than don't do it to us. scigirl

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