Freethought & Rationalism Archive

jess · 08-11-2001, 12:41 PM

Quote:

No matter what you try to preach, your followers are bound to screw it up sooner or later. then it is the same old problems again.

That is an absolute truth.

I think you should submit it to the growing IPU scriptures...

kctan · 08-11-2001, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cornelius:


The one I own is translated from Chinese. I believe that the chapter on Kuan-Yin is a Chinese addition not found in the original Sanskrit, do you know of any other major alterations?

regards,

Cornelius

Sorry, unless I re-read the lotus sutra again, I can't re-call any other major alterations.

sailor74 · 08-21-2001, 03:58 AM

cornelius is right!

the sutras say if anyone slanders the name of buddhism, he will suffer for eons and eons, it was when i read this that i decided not to become a real adept of buddhism. the bible says the same thing when it says if anyone blaphemies the name of the holy ghost he will be held in contempt and it is unforgivable.thats why im not a christian..all bunk.....

Athough Zen buddhism has no such non-sense, just meditate and seek inner truth, i like this much better.

what do you do when you meet a zen master on the road to kyoto??

danny

Prince Ashitaka · 08-21-2001, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cornelius:
Anyone who doubts that Buddhism can be just as intolerant as any other religion should read the Lotus Sutra. There is one chapter that devotes a great amount of space to describing the torment that will be inflicted on those who reject its teaching.

No, The Lotus Sutra says nothing of the sort. In the 3rd Chapter, which you describe as people being tormented in Hell, you are right. There is a hell, but you do ACTS to go there, same with heaven. You also should have looked at the chapter title of Chapter 3, which is 'A Parable'. Yeesh.

Prince Ashitaka · 08-21-2001, 11:03 AM

Oh, please provide the chapter and a quote that says non-believers in Buddhism roast for a long time. I would be most interested in it. Okay?

Prince Ashitaka · 08-21-2001, 11:08 AM

Also, I'm not sure if Theravada Buddhists use the Lotus Sutra. Only Mahayana does.

Cornelius · 08-21-2001, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by awake:
Oh, please provide the chapter and a quote that says non-believers in Buddhism roast for a long time. I would be most interested in it. Okay?

As I said, this is from the third chapter. Please explain how else these lines should be interpreted other than their clear meaning.

These lines are from this site:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/lotus/lot03.htm

Quote:

111. But do not speak of this matter to haughty persons, nor to conceited ones, nor to Yogins who are not self-restrained; for
the fools, always revelling in sensual pleasures, might in their blindness scorn the law manifested.

112. Now hear the dire results when one scorns my skilfulness and the Buddha-rules for ever fixed in the world; when one,
with sullen brow, scorns the vehicle.

113. Hear the destiny of those who have scorned such a S�tra like this, whether during my lifetime or after my Nirv�na, or who have wronged the monks.

114. After having disappeared from amongst men, they shall dwell in the lowest hell (Av�ki) during a whole kalpa, and
thereafter they shall fall lower and lower, the fools, passing through repeated births for many intermediate kalpas.

115. And when they have vanished from amongst the inhabitants of hell, they shall further descend to the condition of brutes, be
even as dogs and jackals, and become a sport to others.

116. Under such circumstances they shall grow blackish of colour, spotted, covered with sores, itchy; moreover, they shall be
hairless and feeble, (all) those who have an aversion to my supreme enlightenment.

117. They are ever despised amongst animals; hit by clods or weapons they yell; everywhere they are threatened with sticks,
and their bodies are emaciated from hunger and thirst.

118. Sometimes they become camels or asses, carrying loads, and are beaten with whips and sticks; they are constantly
occupied with thoughts of eating, the fools who have scorned the Buddharule.

119. At other times they become ugly jackals, half blind and crippled; the helpless creatures are vexed by the village boys, who
throw clods and weapons at them.

120. Again shooting off from that place, those fools become animals with bodies of five hundred yoganas, whirling round, dull
and lazy.

121. They have no feet, and creep on the belly; to be devoured by many kotis of animals is the dreadful punishment they have
to suffer for having scorned a S�tra like this.

122. And whenever they assume a human shape, they are born crippled, maimed, crooked, one-eyed, blind, dull, and low,
they having no faith in my S�tra.

123. Nobody keeps their side; a putrid smell is continually issuing from their mouths; an evil spirit has entered the body of those
who do not believe in this supreme enlightenment.

124. Needy, obliged to do menial labour, always in another's service, feeble, and subject to many diseases they go about in the
world, unprotected.

125. The man whom they happen to serve is unwilling to give them much, and what he gives is soon lost. Such is the fruit of
sinfulness.

126. Even the best-prepared medicaments, administered to them by able men, do, under those circumstances, but increase
their illness, and the disease has no end.

127. Some commit thefts, affrays, assaults, or acts of hostility, whereas others commit robberies of goods; (all this) befalls the
sinner.

128. Never does he behold the Lord of the world, the King of kings ruling the earth, for he is doomed to live at a wrong time,
he who scorns my Buddha-rule.

129. Nor does that foolish person listen to the law; he is deaf and senseless; he never finds rest, because he has scorned this
enlightenment.

130. During many hundred thousand myriads of kotis of �ons equal to the sand of the Ganges he shall be dull and defective;
that is the evil result from scorning this S�tra.

131. Hell is his garden (or monastery), a place of misfortune his abode; he is continually living amongst asses, hogs, jackals, and
dogs.

132. And when he has assumed a human shape he is to be blind, deaf, and stupid, the servant of another, and always poor.

133. Diseases, myriads of kotis of wounds on the body, scab, itch, scurf, leprosy, blotch, a foul smell are, in that condition, his
covering and apparel.

134. His sight is dim to distinguish the real. His anger appears mighty in him, and his passion is most violent; he always delights
in animal wombs.

135. Were I to go on, S�riputra, for a whole �on, enumerating the evils of him who shall scorn my S�tra, I should not come to
an end.

regards,

Cornelius

Prince Ashitaka · 08-21-2001, 03:43 PM

Yep, I checked, only Mayahana Buddhism uses the Lotus Sutra. I think it originated in China or somewhere. I am not sure though.

SO Theravada Buddhism doesn't damn people who disagree with them to Hell. Only those who do bad, bad things. Also, I think only Mahayana Buddhism added the 'reality is illusion' thing. Unless anybody wants to find it in Theravada Sutras.

Cornelius · 08-21-2001, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by awake:
Yep, I checked, only Mayahana Buddhism uses the Lotus Sutra. I think it originated in China or somewhere. I am not sure though.

In the introduction by W.E. Soothill in the copy I own (The Lotus Of The Wonderful Law or The Lotus Gospel, Curzon Press), he states that it was probably originally composed in Sanskrit in Northern India, possibly as far north as Central Asia. (Soothill pg. 5) The original author is unknown.

The actual text that Soothill used was translated from a Chinese source. The Chinese text made some alterations to the original Sanskrit one. It is the Chinese text that has been used as the basis for the Japanese translation, which several Japanese Buddhist sects use to this day.

regards,

Cornelius

boneyard bill · 08-21-2001, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Yep, I checked, only Mayahana Buddhism uses the Lotus Sutra. I think it originated in China or somewhere. I am not sure though.

Keep in mind that Buddhist scripture is far more voluminous than Christian or Muslim scripture. The Pali Canon (accepted by virually all of Buddhism) is tens of thousands of pages. The sutras were written much later, some of them are very long, and the last I heard they hadn't all been translated into English yet. Most of them are in Chinese. The Sanskrit versions having been lost.

Some of these sutras were related to particular sects. I don't think we can say, therefore, that the Lotus Sutra is authoritative even for all Mahayana sects. What would distinguish the Mahayana from Theravada would be the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra which is much earlier than most other sutras and cast Buddhism in more of an idealist philosophy where the Theravada is more realist in its outlook.

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08-21-2001, 03:58 AM	#23
sailor74 Banned Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: california Posts: 208	cornelius is right! the sutras say if anyone slanders the name of buddhism, he will suffer for eons and eons, it was when i read this that i decided not to become a real adept of buddhism. the bible says the same thing when it says if anyone blaphemies the name of the holy ghost he will be held in contempt and it is unforgivable.thats why im not a christian..all bunk..... Athough Zen buddhism has no such non-sense, just meditate and seek inner truth, i like this much better. what do you do when you meet a zen master on the road to kyoto?? danny

08-21-2001, 11:03 AM	#25
Prince Ashitaka Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USA Posts: 498	Oh, please provide the chapter and a quote that says non-believers in Buddhism roast for a long time. I would be most interested in it. Okay?

08-21-2001, 11:08 AM	#26
Prince Ashitaka Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USA Posts: 498	Also, I'm not sure if Theravada Buddhists use the Lotus Sutra. Only Mahayana does.

08-21-2001, 03:43 PM	#28
Prince Ashitaka Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: USA Posts: 498	Yep, I checked, only Mayahana Buddhism uses the Lotus Sutra. I think it originated in China or somewhere. I am not sure though. SO Theravada Buddhism doesn't damn people who disagree with them to Hell. Only those who do bad, bad things. Also, I think only Mahayana Buddhism added the 'reality is illusion' thing. Unless anybody wants to find it in Theravada Sutras.

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