Freethought & Rationalism Archive

spurly · 03-28-2003, 06:25 PM

Why do I believe the suffering of Jesus was worse than any other death? Two reasons. One is that when he died, he was dying the death of every man. When he died, he took the sin of every man, woman, boy and girl who ever lived upon himself.

Up to this point in his life he had been sinless, righteous, completely holy. Because of that he lived in perfect communion with his Father in Heaven. However, when the sin of all of us was laid on him, the communion he had enjoyed with his Father was immediately broken. Because of sin, he was separated from the love of God because of the holiness of God.

This was the most excruciating part of the incredible suffering that he experienced. For all of eternity he had never been separated from the Father. They had lived in perfect harmony. Now, for a while, they would be separated and that was almost too much for Jesus to bear.

The physical suffering was only a miniscule part of what was happening.

Kevin

Magus55 · 03-28-2003, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
So you do realize Magus that when I said

and you countered with a volume of quotes that weren't from Jesus time. That weren't from people who knew or even saw Jesus, but were from much later. Even though you try to pass them off as being from Jesus time. And even throwing in Acts of Pontius Pilate a work declared a fraud and banned by your own Christian Church. You do realize that you have destroyed any credibility you might have.

Of course, because so much information and lies get passed in 30 years... People who lived in the time of Jesus were still living when the people who wrote the quotes i stated above were. And there, where the heck did so much Christian faith and this "new and mischevous" religion come from named after the person who was crucified while the historians were young children? Christianity didn't come from Buddha!

Biff the unclean · 03-28-2003, 08:15 PM

Christianity didn't come from Buddha!
And the Flavius Josephus quote didn't come from Josephus
(even the RCC admits that it is the work of Eusebius) and Pontius Pilate didn't write the Acts of Pontius Pilate, which is why they were banned.
To present what is politely called "pious fraud" as evidence doesn't help you case. Nor does ignoring the fact that a "Christ" was a type of demigod and not Jesus. There were plenty of Christians in those days, only a few would have heard of Jesus.

Biff the unclean · 03-28-2003, 08:20 PM

For all of eternity he had never been separated from the Father. They had lived in perfect harmony. Now, for a while, they would be separated and that was almost too much for Jesus to bear.
The physical suffering was only a miniscule part of what was happening.
Kevin

This sounds more like brain dry cleaning than just a plain wash!
Jesus was home sick? Do you think his Dad sewed his name on his shorts?
You make Christ out to be a big sissy, are you sure that you want to do that?

spurly · 03-28-2003, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
For all of eternity he had never been separated from the Father. They had lived in perfect harmony. Now, for a while, they would be separated and that was almost too much for Jesus to bear.
The physical suffering was only a miniscule part of what was happening.
Kevin

This sounds more like brain dry cleaning than just a plain wash!
Jesus was home sick? Do you think his Dad sewed his name on his shorts?
You make Christ out to be a big sissy, are you sure that you want to do that?

No, it is not making him out to be a sissy. Jesus had experienced something from the beginning of his eternity that none of us have been able to experience since Adam and Eve - a perfect relationship with the Father that was totally uninterrupted.

His love for the Father led him to great sorrow at seeing that relationship interrupted, even for a short time. That was the cup that he was not willing to drink unless it was his Father's will.

I can only know a little bit of what that is like because my relationship with God has been marred by sin. However, I don't want to go a minute outside of my relationship with him.

It's all about love. It's all about living the life we were created for.

Kevin

Biff the unclean · 03-28-2003, 08:29 PM

Christianity didn't come from Buddha!
The branch that did come from the Buddha has long since been banned. They followed the Gospel of Thomas (which you can find in paperback if you are interested) which is taken straight from Mahayana Buddhism

Biff the unclean · 03-28-2003, 08:39 PM

His love for the Father led him to great sorrow at seeing that relationship interrupted, even for a short time. That was the cup that he was not willing to drink unless it was his Father's will.
Funny that for thirty something years it didn't bother him.
But when he thought he might feel physical pain he started to sweat blood.
You would thinK that if what you claim is true he would have been dancing a little jig at the thought of kicking the bucket and going back to Daddy. But there he, is flat on his face in the dirt of the garden begging
Are you sure you are reading the same NT the rest of us have. My copy seems to be missing a lot of the information you are privy to.

spurly · 03-28-2003, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
His love for the Father led him to great sorrow at seeing that relationship interrupted, even for a short time. That was the cup that he was not willing to drink unless it was his Father's will.
Funny that for thirty something years it didn't bother him.
But when he thought he might feel physical pain he started to sweat blood.
You would thinK that if what you claim is true he would have been dancing a little jig at the thought of kicking the bucket and going back to Daddy. But there he, is flat on his face in the dirt of the garden begging
Are you sure you are reading the same NT the rest of us have. My copy seems to be missing a lot of the information you are privy to.

BTU:

It didn't bother him before this time because his relationship with the Father was not severed. While he was on earth his sinlessness allowed him to continue living in perfect harmony with God. It was only when the sins of the world were laid on him at the cross that the relationship he had with God, which had been unbroken since the beginning of time, was going to be severed.

Jesus did not want that. That's why he asked if there was any other way. Isn't there some way the world can be saved and I don't have to separated from you, even for a moment! That thought was almost unbearable. However, fortunately for us he prayed the second part of that prayer - not my will but yours be done".

The physical pain was going to be nothing compared to the father turning his back on the Son.

From this side of eternity that is a perspective that is hard to understand. But it is the only perspective that makes sense, not only of the scene in the Garden, but of the whole message of Scripture.

Thanks for asking.

Kevin

Rhea · 03-28-2003, 08:57 PM

Spurly, that is an interesting approach, and one I've heard before. What I haven't heard yet, is what scripture tells you that "taking on sins" was what was making Jesus suffer. I'm interested in your citations.

And another thing I haven't heard is how anyone knows that Jesus asked God to "take the cup from him" since he was alone in the garden. Mightn't he have said, "God Damnit - NO!" ? Or perhaps he failed completely and God switched bodies with him so God could complete the task. How does any Christian - anyone anywhere - actually know what went on in that Garden? Just curious.

Do you have references from the bible to explain either of those? I readily admit they may be there without my knowledge. I'm just curious.

lpetrich · 03-28-2003, 08:58 PM

First off, Jesus Christ was supposedly God, who is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient. Thus, what his tormentors had done to him was like attacking a tank with a spitball. (yes, I mean the military vehicle and a little wad of paper; didn't any of you ever make spitballs in your childhood?)

And as to Magus55's "evidence", here goes:

Tacitus -- from Xians' beliefs; he viewed Xianity as a vile cult

Pliny -- from Xians' beliefs

Pontius Pilate -- that "apology" is forged

Seutonius -- could be some other "Chrestus"

Mara Bar-Serapion -- the Jews' "wise king" could easily have been someone else

Phlegon -- reported on by Origen, Xian propagandist

Thallus -- reported on by another Xian propagandist

Lucian -- from Xians' beliefs; he viewed Xianity as a goofy cult whose followers were easily suckered

The Jewish Talmud -- from Xians' beliefs; claims that JC's father had been a Roman soldier named Panthera

Josephus -- the closest source, but his references have been the subject of endless controversy, and I believe that they were forged

Reading the Gospels, one would conclude that JC had been a BIG celebrity, but nobody else seems to have heard of him in his time -- all these sources are decades later

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03-28-2003, 06:25 PM	#11
spurly Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 710	Why do I believe the suffering of Jesus was worse than any other death? Two reasons. One is that when he died, he was dying the death of every man. When he died, he took the sin of every man, woman, boy and girl who ever lived upon himself. Up to this point in his life he had been sinless, righteous, completely holy. Because of that he lived in perfect communion with his Father in Heaven. However, when the sin of all of us was laid on him, the communion he had enjoyed with his Father was immediately broken. Because of sin, he was separated from the love of God because of the holiness of God. This was the most excruciating part of the incredible suffering that he experienced. For all of eternity he had never been separated from the Father. They had lived in perfect harmony. Now, for a while, they would be separated and that was almost too much for Jesus to bear. The physical suffering was only a miniscule part of what was happening. Kevin

03-28-2003, 08:15 PM	#13
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Christianity didn't come from Buddha! And the Flavius Josephus quote didn't come from Josephus (even the RCC admits that it is the work of Eusebius) and Pontius Pilate didn't write the Acts of Pontius Pilate, which is why they were banned. To present what is politely called "pious fraud" as evidence doesn't help you case. Nor does ignoring the fact that a "Christ" was a type of demigod and not Jesus. There were plenty of Christians in those days, only a few would have heard of Jesus.

03-28-2003, 08:20 PM	#14
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	For all of eternity he had never been separated from the Father. They had lived in perfect harmony. Now, for a while, they would be separated and that was almost too much for Jesus to bear. The physical suffering was only a miniscule part of what was happening. Kevin This sounds more like brain dry cleaning than just a plain wash! Jesus was home sick? Do you think his Dad sewed his name on his shorts? You make Christ out to be a big sissy, are you sure that you want to do that?

03-28-2003, 08:29 PM	#16
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Christianity didn't come from Buddha! The branch that did come from the Buddha has long since been banned. They followed the Gospel of Thomas (which you can find in paperback if you are interested) which is taken straight from Mahayana Buddhism

03-28-2003, 08:39 PM	#17
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	His love for the Father led him to great sorrow at seeing that relationship interrupted, even for a short time. That was the cup that he was not willing to drink unless it was his Father's will. Funny that for thirty something years it didn't bother him. But when he thought he might feel physical pain he started to sweat blood. You would thinK that if what you claim is true he would have been dancing a little jig at the thought of kicking the bucket and going back to Daddy. But there he, is flat on his face in the dirt of the garden begging Are you sure you are reading the same NT the rest of us have. My copy seems to be missing a lot of the information you are privy to.

03-28-2003, 08:57 PM	#19
Rhea Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Recluse Posts: 9,040	Spurly, that is an interesting approach, and one I've heard before. What I haven't heard yet, is what scripture tells you that "taking on sins" was what was making Jesus suffer. I'm interested in your citations. And another thing I haven't heard is how anyone knows that Jesus asked God to "take the cup from him" since he was alone in the garden. Mightn't he have said, "God Damnit - NO!" ? Or perhaps he failed completely and God switched bodies with him so God could complete the task. How does any Christian - anyone anywhere - actually know what went on in that Garden? Just curious. Do you have references from the bible to explain either of those? I readily admit they may be there without my knowledge. I'm just curious.

03-28-2003, 08:58 PM	#20
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	First off, Jesus Christ was supposedly God, who is supposedly omnipotent and omniscient. Thus, what his tormentors had done to him was like attacking a tank with a spitball. (yes, I mean the military vehicle and a little wad of paper; didn't any of you ever make spitballs in your childhood?) And as to Magus55's "evidence", here goes: Tacitus -- from Xians' beliefs; he viewed Xianity as a vile cult Pliny -- from Xians' beliefs Pontius Pilate -- that "apology" is forged Seutonius -- could be some other "Chrestus" Mara Bar-Serapion -- the Jews' "wise king" could easily have been someone else Phlegon -- reported on by Origen, Xian propagandist Thallus -- reported on by another Xian propagandist Lucian -- from Xians' beliefs; he viewed Xianity as a goofy cult whose followers were easily suckered The Jewish Talmud -- from Xians' beliefs; claims that JC's father had been a Roman soldier named Panthera Josephus -- the closest source, but his references have been the subject of endless controversy, and I believe that they were forged Reading the Gospels, one would conclude that JC had been a BIG celebrity, but nobody else seems to have heard of him in his time -- all these sources are decades later

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