Secular Elation

As far as I am aware, nearly all the religion profess the existence of some form of an afterlife. For Christianity, it is Heaven and Hell. For Buddhists (or Hinduism?) , it is reincarnation. And so on.

Of course, atheists (at least the ones I've met so far in my life) deny the existence of an afterlife. We are convinced that god is noting more than a fairy tale and so is the afterlife.

However, what connection, if any, is there between the issue of the existence of gods and the existence of an afterlife? Does a god need to exist for there to be one? If a god did exist, does it not necessarily mean that an afterlife exists as well?

As for myself, I'm fairly much in line with my fellow atheists in regards to this. Consciousness seems to depend primarily on the physical brain. If the brain is destroyed, then our consciousness is destroyed as well. Additionally, the idea of 'souls' is nonsense, but do souls need to exist for there to be an afterlife?

The existing concepts of the afterlife are nonsensical. Heaven, where souls are to exist for an eternity? An eternity? Please. Reincarnation? How could we possibly determine if a human being has been reborn as another animal?

Moreover, it seems that our characteristics are shaped for the natural world alone. Our bodies have components that are specifically for use in the natural world. The alimentary canal is the location of the digestion of food. We need lungs to breathe in oxygen. And so on.

Does this mean that, if an afterlife existed, there exists gases such as oxygen in that alternate world? If I hold my breath, will I die yet again from asphyxiation? What kind of foods are there in an afterlife, or will I no longer be hungry?

If a god existed, I could not fathom how it could possibly create a natural world, with specific biological characteristics, and then apply those same characteristics in an alternate, supernatural world. As far as I am concerned, gods and afterlives are both bunk.

Kenny

Well, I’m a Christian who believes in the Christian notion of an afterlife. However, I think your question is an interesting one especially because I am taking a class on Buddhism right now.

By and large Buddhists believe in neither God nor a soul, yet they do believe in an afterlife. They believe that we are reborn, in one of six realms (human, animal, hell, god, ghost, and titian realms) into other lives after we die as a continuation of the causal mechanisms that made us up in our previous lives. There is no soul being transmitted to different bodies, merely the nearest continuation of what came before. Just as there is a sense in which I could say that my deck is the same deck even if I replaced all it’s boards one at a time, there is a sense in which I can say that the I am the same me that I was in my past lives (according to Buddhist thought, not my own personal beliefs) even though I have a completely different body and am in a completely different type of existence, because of the causal links which bind me to those past lives. Anyway, I think it’s interesting stuff, even though I also think it’s wrong

God Bless,
Kenny

sidewinder

I think a god of some sort would need to exist for there to be an afterlife. It's hard to conceive how there could be an afterlife without some sort of god who created it. If the afterlife did exist without a god, then perhaps the afterlife would somehow be an extension of our natural world, but that's hard to imagine too.

On your other question, I think it's possible that a god could exist but that this god provides no afterlife for humans. One example of such a scenario is in the Hebrew Scriptures. It appears that the early Israelites believed in Yahweh but did not have a belief in an afterlife, at least not one like the Christian or Muslim version.

I read something in a book recently that stated science has much more to learn about human consciousness. It is still largely a mystery. I'm not suggesting that the answer to the mystery is the soul. It'll just be interesting to see what science learns about it. Another idea about the soul comes from the Christian scholar, Richard Swinburne. He believes that evolution is true and states that at some point in human evolution, the Christian God attached a soul to human beings. On your other question, if there is an afterlife, then it would seem that some part of our essence would survive, which I guess we could call a soul.

It's hard to imagine existing for an eternity. I mean what the hell do you do for an eternity. If there is an afterlife and we do exist for an eternity, there better be many forms of entertainment in this afterlife. I agree with you about reincarnation. It's impossible to prove that someone has been reborn as another animal.

I suppose it's possible that some part of us, our essence, could survive death and enter an afterlife. All signs in this world point to death being the end of all life, but I suppose it's possible. It's just like the question over the existence of a god. It's possible but all signs point to the non-existence of any god.

Goliath

Secular Elation,

I couldn't help but pick a nit (although I consider it to be a very important nit):

This is not entirely true. Weak atheists, such as myself, merely lack belief in any kind of god. I would go so far as to say that many (if not all) atheists also lack belief in an afterlife. However, this is not the same thing as denying an afterlife. It is impossible to deny that which one does not believe to exist.

As to your question, I'm not sure if there are any implications to be drawn between the statements "a god exists" and "an afterlife exists." Of course, if particular gods exist (eg. the xian god), then afterlives exist (ie the xian heaven and hell), and if certain afterlives exist (eg. Valhalla), then it would seem that certain deities would exist (ie the Norse pantheon of gods).

But in general, I'm not sure either implication would hold.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Secular Elation

This is not entirely true. Weak atheists, such as myself, merely lack belief in any kind of god. I would go so far as to say that many (if not all) atheists also lack belief in an afterlife. However, this is not the same thing as denying an afterlife. It is impossible to deny that which one does not believe to exist.

All right, all right...I know all about your technical explanations of the atheist position, weak or whatever. My post was not intended to bring up those irritating distinctions of the various atheist positions.

Goliath

Secular Elation,

Irritating? Perhaps to you, but the distinction is an important one, whether you like it or not.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Secular Elation

Irritating? Perhaps to you, but the distinction is an important one, whether you like it or not.

The distinction is necessary, indeed, but irritating nevertheless. I did not mean to misrepresent all atheists in my original post.

Now, enough thread hijacking!

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Secular Elation ]</p>

Philosoft

Slightly off topic, but the soul seems to be an untenable concept. Few would disagree that our brains generate much of our everyday cognitive functionality and provide a means for storing and recalling representations of sights, sounds, smells that we have physically experienced. I have to wonder, if it is indeed our brain infrastructure that handles these tasks, what is there for the soul to do? It seems to me that, hypothetically, whatever "essence" makes us uniquely human isn't going to be much and it isn't going to be able to do much in the absence of the brain's neural framework. Now, obviously, it can be asserted that the soul also has all these capabilities, and more, but then why have a brain in the first place?

[ April 09, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

Wizardry

I don’t think that the existence of God is necessary to the concept of an afterlife.

All the afterlife requires is a significant immaterial component of consciousness. It can then be said that some part of the person survives while the material body dies. No gods required.

Peace out.

eh

Except that there has never been a coherent description of a non physical form of existence.

What about a bizarre substance in the brain that somehow survives death? Gods may not be needed to design such a substance, if one wants to believe in ET's that mess around with humans. To me though, both sound kinda silly.